The Republican Field

[evilleramsfan 27]

Nah....I think I'd take a lead pill before living under a Pelosi presidency....

[le Voyageur 72]

For the 2012 Donny Brook, it has become obvious that the current slate of Right Wing whack jobs running for POTUS are hauling the ghost of Reagan out of the dumpster. Dispite wrecking the economy, destroying the US energy policy, raising taxes, dumping billions into failed weapon systems, the odious stench of sedition and treason reeking out of the Oval Office, as well as one of the most scandalous administration in American history, it befuddles me how the Cons continue to worship the myth of Ronnie over historical truths?

The real legacy of Reagan is that he legitimized, and made respectable the nastier feelings that "greed is good", and "government is the problem". And the loons of the Right are banking on that legacy to pull a rabbit out of their tinfoil hat....

 

[JoeBob 606]

Echo? What echo?

[jrush 11]

le V, have you gotten into granddaddy's "medicine" again?

 

Reagan was nothing more or less than a "big business" Republican who expanded the tent to make room for hawkish southern democrats and the religious right. He is revered for his ability to bring together a large constituency and shellack his Demmo opponent, for his ability to sign tax multiple hikes and a gun ban into law and still maintain the image of a "pro-rights" conservative.

 

His admin was no more scandalous than either Bush or Clinton or Obama's by the time his servie is over.

 

By the way, unless you can cite something, educated people dismiss your argument out of hand when you whip out the word "treason". It is defined by the US Constitution, not by le Voyageur or some talking head on TV.

[le Voyageur 72]

Well JRush -

 

One of the required courses of study that was required for the job I had in the military was International Law covering the rules of war. During Reagan's tenure, he ran a secret war in Central America that cost 75 000 lives. The public only became aware of this war after the murder of four nuns. My job in this war wasn't much...just photo recon for intell purposes. I shot Kodak, not bullets.

So yes, I know what treason is. And I know what Reagan did. Now, what are your quals since you're attempting to be an expert here...(This message has been edited by le Voyageur)

[SeattlePioneer 144]

The real leader at waging unauthorized, covert warfare was Franklin Roosevelt, as part of his plan to draw the United States into WWII despite 70% popular opposition to the war and in defiance of strict neutrality laws.

 

 

For doing that, in part, he rates as the second greatest US President after George Washington.

 

Ronald Reagan is right up there despite his covert warfare.

 

And so is Lincoln, despite his defiance of the Supreme Court and throwing people into jail for political reasons and refusing to respond to habeus corpus law suits.

 

 

All three could have been impeached. None were, and instead all are properly regarded as being top Presidents.

[jrush 11]

There is nothing in the Constitution barring the President from supporting an insurrection in another country.

 

Next, as we've both pointed out, treason is defined by the Constitution, and managing someone else's war isn't part of it, no matter if 75 million people are killed. I didn't say I was an expert, I said I read the US Constitution.

 

As far as quals, after I took an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same", I took an interest on what the aforementioned document actually says, since I was swearing allegiance to it. Does it make me an expert? No, I simply know what it says. You learn all sorts of things when you actually read the US Constitution. There's not a whole lot to it. The US Code is lengthy, but the Constitution is only several pages long. Treason is defined in a single sentence.

 

Now, it may be your personal opinion that fomenting or managing a war in another country is treason, but as long as you aren't levying war against the United States or adhering to an enemy of the United States, the US Constituion (the legal authority in this matter) disagrees.

 

Anyhow, it's only a sentence. I would read it before further pontificating about who committed treason by doing what.

[le Voyageur 72]

Well, I see that you ignored the Iran Contra Affair, and the back door deal his election team made with Iran to continue holding American hostages to defeat Carter at the poll.

I've notice you also latched on to the word "treason" ignoring also in total the other word that I used. To refresh your memory that word is "Sedition".

Within the Consitution treason is defined as..."... shall consist only in levying War....or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

Please note ..."giving them Aid". Suggest here you do a review of the Iran Contra Scandal.

For Sedition, sedition often includes subversion of a constitution...Reagan pushed the Unitary Executive Theory to the max to sidestep Congressional oversight committees... so much for Consitutional checks and balances..

Suggest you work a bit more on your studies of the Consitution, as well as history.

(This message has been edited by le Voyageur)

[le Voyageur 72]

Seattle Pioneer....I'll have to disagree with you...I give the credit to Woodrow Wilson..consider that the Bolshevik revolution of 1917 was met with overt hostility from President Wilson's administration. After withdrawing funding for Russia and opposing a British and French plan to include the Bolsheviks as allies against Germany in 1918, the United States extended its maritime blockade of Germany to include Soviet Russia and began covertly supporting Russian opposition factions. In 1918, the United States together with other Western powers and Japan launched an armed intervention during the Russian Civil War that included an armed invasion staged in the Russian port cities of Vladivostok and Archangel. Wilson appointed General William S. Graves to lead the thousands of American troops at Vladivostok.

None the less, Wilson was the fairy godmother who provided Trotsky with a passport to return to Russia to "carry forward" the revolution. This American passport was accompanied by a Russian entry permit and a British transit visa. Jennings C. Wise, in Woodrow Wilson: Disciple of Revolution, makes the pertinent comment, "Historians must never forget that Woodrow Wilson, despite the efforts of the British police, made it possible for Leon Trotsky to enter Russia with an American passport."

Consequently, by virtue of preferential treatment for Trotsky, when the S.S. Kristianiafjord left New York on March 26, 1917, Trotsky was aboard, and in company with other Trotskyire revolutionaries, Wall Street financiers, American Communists, and other interesting persons, few of whom had embarked for legitimate business.

Most notably, journalist, and muckracker Lincoln Steffens was on board en route to Russia at the specific invitation of Charles Richard Crane, a backer and a former chairman of the Democratic Party's finance committee. Charles Crane, vice president of the Crane Company, had organized the Westinghouse Company in Russia, was a member of the Root mission to Russia, and had made no fewer than twenty-three visits to Russia between 1890 and 1930. Richard Crane, his son, was confidential assistant to then Secretary of State Robert Lansing. According to the former ambassador to Germany William Dodd, Crane "did much to bring on the Kerensky revolution which gave way to Communism."

Crane returned to the United States when the Bolshevik Revolution had been completed and, although a private citizen, was given firsthand reports of the progress of the Bolshevik Revolution as cables were received at the State Department.(This message has been edited by le Voyageur)

[JoeBob 606]

leV:

 

Can I sell tickets to my own hanging? Since my cache of incandescent light bulbs must surely be treasonous by your broad definition and interpretation of the US Constitution.

 

Hanging will probably be a more enjoyable way to die than growing old under ObamaCare!

 

JoeBob

 

PS- I think I'll have a cigarette before they stretch me. Haven't had a cigarette in years...

[le Voyageur 72]

Chief Justice Marshall in ex parte Bollman -

 

''Crimes so atrocious as those which have for their object the subversion by violence of those laws and those institutions which have been ordained in order to secure the peace and happiness of society, are not to escape punishment, because they have not ripened into treason."(This message has been edited by le Voyageur)

[JoeBob 606]

Anwar al Awlaki

 

American citizen - Shoot to kill order directly from the Whitehouse.

No trial. No process, much less Due Process.

 

Do any of the civil libertarian puristas on the board want to try to justify the killing of al Awlaki?

 

Or shall we realists just quietly turn our heads and ignore your application of double standards, because it's your boy in the Whitehouse?

 

[packsaddle 753]

"...your boy in the Whitehouse."

JoeBob, I find these words to be a repugnant reminder of what I often heard while I grew up in the South. I'm astonished to see them expressed openly in a scouting forum.

[jrush 11]

LeV, Reagan pushed his Constitutional authority to the limit, but he didn't overstep it.

 

Iran was not at war with us.

 

Further, I suggest you read Article 2. Don't just copy/paste some quips, READ it. Further, don't confuse the DOI with the USC...one is the philosophy of the land, the other is the law of the land.

 

I didn't ignore Iran-Contra and Sedition; nothing Reagan did rose to that level. There are plenty of checks Congress has on the President.

 

Keep in mind that Reagan did all this with a Demmo House. They had the votes necessary to impeach him if they wished. They couldn't have found him guilty (they didn't control 2/3 of the Senate), but the act of impeaching him would've been an indicator that they thought he was violating the Constitution.

 

[le Voyageur 72]

JoeBob...

 

Suggest you find another board to carry on your ad hominem attacks with those racist dog whistles...this isn't the place.(This message has been edited by le Voyageur)