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What Would it Take to Change your mind on ...

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So, Eagledad said


"Gay sex is not natural, and we have to agree to disagree on this subject."


So, the question here is, what information would it take to change your mind that Homosexuality is/is not deviant/unnatural/wrong, whatever your view is


Now, this is not another avenue to argue the morality of Homosexuality, we have plenty of them threads running around, this is what information would cause you to change your position, whatever it is?

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For someone to prove that someone else's sexual orientation inherently harms me or my family, or other people in general.


(If anyone is confused, I don't think homosexuality is "wrong", I think whether it's "natural" or "normal" or not is irrelevant, and I think Boy Scout units should be permitted to choose a leader who is openly gay. I don't think a gay person is causing me any harm just by existing, or marrying a person of their own gender -- so to change my mind, someone would have to prove that such harm does exist. Good luck.)

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Not "natural"??


LOTS of things we humans do are not "natural". That is, we engage in many truly bizarre behaviors that are not found in nature. We cook food. That's not "natural". We wear clothes. That's not "natural". We shave our bodies. That's not natural. We adorn our bodies with decorations and color our hair pink. That's not natural. We climb mountains and jump out of airplanes for pleasure. We purposely alter our body chemistry. We have organs of dead people surgically implanted into us. We have sex face-to face. We have sex face-to- ummm... That's certainly not natural either. So, your point is ...?


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I have no idea what it would take. I can tell you that there are plenty of things that would not have a positive impact on changing my mind, including comments regarding what is or is not natural. I guess I'm open-minded enough to say that something somewhere out there might change my mind, but I'm probably kidding myself to say that. Keep trying.


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I really wonder how many people who loudly espouse anti-homosexual views have ever known a gay person. And not a casual acquaintance, I mean had a close friend who was gay.


For me, I truly believe this to be a generational thing, with the social acceptability of homosexuals to come out and live their lives more openly as opposed to living extremely under the radar in previous decades leading to more people having more exposure to openly gay people.


I'm a younger Scouter. As for me, I had two gay roommates in college, and one of my closest friends is gay. Most of my heterosexual friends are similar in this regard. We think nothing of it. Our parents' generation, however, that's a different story. I really think there is no way to change someone's opinion other than to provide a way by which they can see what everyday gay people are like. Too often they view the gay community in the extremes as they see in the media, or as portrayed to them through stereotypes put forth by any number of sources, most notably from the Church. That's like viewing the heterosexual population through the lens of the Girls Gone Wild commercials on cable TV and Cosmopolitan Magazine. For us, gay people are a part of our lives, and while we may not always approve of the activities or activism of portions of their community, I think a lot of us wouldn't approve of a lot of the activities or activism in the heterosexual community, either.


The argument is not about we think something is "natural" or "unnatural." At the end of the day, we only have control over our own decisions and how we mold our own lives. I'm heterosexual. I'm confident in that regard. And I know I will find someone who will make me happy and provide companionship for the extent of my life here on God's green earth, and it will be a woman. If someone else feels that for them that person will be of the same sex, who am I to judge or intrude on their ability to be equally happy and complete? I have no control over their impulses, nor really do they, as I think our generation is also fairly confident in the fact that homosexuality is not a choice but rather a genetic inclination.


There's an old Russian proverb I always like to cite when someone gets really riled up about issues of homosexuality, whether or not it's natural, whether sexual relations between same-sex couples is acceptable in modern society: "What, were you standing next to the bed with a candle?" Why do we care so much about what happens in someone else's bedroom? Why can't we be comfortable with who we are and be less interested about how others find that same confidence?

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At the risk of being accused of being close-minded, I'm at least going to be intellectually honest.


No, there is nothing that I can conceive of that could be said or shown to me that would convince me that homosexuality is wrong/bad.


Because not only would the evidence have to be compelling in its own right in making a case that homosexuality is wrong, it would also have to somehow invalidate the vast volume of research to the contrary. It would have to somehow invalidate almost 20 years of professional experience in working with homosexual clients, as well as 30 years of deep friendship with some very fine people.


And that has about as much chance of happening as two gay people producing a baby "naturally" or verses supporting homosexuality suddenly appearing in the Bible.


If all that did happen, then, yes, I hope that I would be able to rethink my position. But such circumstances are so inconceivable to me that I really can't give a definitive answer.


But at least I'm honest about it.

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"So, the question here is, what information would it take to change your mind that Homosexuality is/is not deviant/unnatural/wrong, whatever your view is "


Nothing. Homosexuality is a disordered thought/behavior pattern. There is nothing that can change that. However, as long as it's not being pushed on children as being normal, I have no problem with it. Do whatever you want in the privacy of your own home. Have a civil union with a same sex partner. As a gay man, adopt children. I'm ok with all of those, but that doesn't mean that I think that homosexuality isn't abnormal. Evolutionarily, homosexuality is a dead end.

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Bando says, "For me, I truly believe this to be a generational thing..."


I agree. I am currently preparing the presentation on "Generations in Scouting" for our council's fall 2010 Wood Badge course. This is a spanking new module and I practiced it for the first time this last weekend with the Wood Badge staff serving as the test audience. One of the key take-away messages (in this National syllabus) is that Scouting changes with each generation. It has changed over the last 30-40 years (eg., female leaders/members, 2-deep), and it will see other changes in the coming decades. The current generation of Scouts, born 1990-2004, will be adult leaders before we know it and they will bring their own life experiences, values, and expectations into Scouting. My personal views (not brought into the WB session) are that some of those changes will reflect America's increasing acceptance of homosexuality.


If Scouter.com lasts until 2030, I'll come back as an old geezer and tell you all "I told you so!" :)


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