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The Price and the Promise of Citizenship - Obama

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Before providing the following explanation, I wish to say that I do not feel that there is necessarily a issue here.


A birth certificate is signed by the delivering physician and a witness (usually a nurse). The time and place (a hospital) is likewise recorded. Hawaii had only been a state for a couple of years when Obama was born. Many children were still born in homes at the time. Those births were not recorded as a true birth certificate. Those children could be issued a Certificate of Live Birth but would not have a true Birth Certificate. Thus, a mother with an infant could apply for a Certificate of Live Birth even though the child could have theoretically been born elsewhere.


The Obama campaign has said that he was born in a hospital so he would have a Birth Certificate. The only thing posted and vouched for by Hawaii is a Certificate of Live Birth. He has defended several lawsuits using 3 expensive law firms when he could have produced a true Birth Certificate that he obtained from the state of Hawaii for very little. His refusal to produce the Birth Certificate has fueled the suspicions as to his ability to satisfy the 'Natural Born' requirement in the constitution that applies only to the president.


The cases have not been decided on the actual merits of the cases but rather that the persons bringing the suits have no standing in the case. The SCOTUS has reviewed several of these cases and has not chosen to hear them without comment.


Thus, the circumstances allows each of us to interpret what the truth is according to our own notions. However you see this issue, it is not good to have this kind of issue following a president. It apparently falls to the parties to be sure that all requirements are met. That is not a good system.


Obama is the president and we must all pray that he makes the best decisions for our country.

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"A birth certificate is signed by the delivering physician and a witness (usually a nurse). The time and place (a hospital) is likewise recorded."


"The Obama campaign has said that he was born in a hospital so he would have a Birth Certificate. The only thing posted and vouched for by Hawaii is a Certificate of Live Birth."


"...he could have produced a true Birth Certificate that he obtained from the state of Hawaii for very little."


Ok, is Hawaii the only state that does things this way? I have never heard of such a strange thing. Birth Certificates are issued by the government -- county or state -- not by hospitals. The record I got when each of my children was born was called a "Hospital Birth Record" -- and it said very clearly on it that it was NOT a Birth Certificate. The Birth Certificate is not signed by the doctor, midwife, etc.. It is applied for later and issued by the state.


I have looked into getting a replacement certificate for myself, as I mentioned before, because mine is wearing out. I know for a fact that the State of Texas does not have any way to pull up the Hospital Birth Record. All they can or will issue is the "Certificate of Live Birth."


I'm sorry, but I just don't buy all this stuff. I don't have my hospital birth record. I don't know if I have the ones for my kids anymore or not. It really didn't seem that important. I can't think of any reason why I should expect Obama to have his. Furthermore, I would be surprised if a replacement could be obtained from the hospital after 47 years. A "True Birth Certificate" is the one issued by the state, not the hospital. A hospital birth record is not considered a valid form of ID for... anything that I can think of. In the days when you could go to Mexico or Canada without a passport, the hospital birth record was not sufficient. The state-issued Certificate of Live Birth was required. To get a passport, you need the Certificate of Live Birth. To get a Social Security Card... you guessed it, CoLB. So, as far as I can tell, this elusive "true" birth certificate is a fictional construct.



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Certificate of Live Birth is the only record of birth I received for my sons. Older son, born in Maryland. Hospital did not give me a hospital birth record certificate. Younger son, born in South Carolina. Ditto no hospital birth records. The only documents I ever received were the certs of live birth.


Going back a few more years to my own birth. My certificate from Washington, DC doesn't even have an official seal on it. It is dated thirteen months after my birth. Why? Because I was adopted. As far as I know, there is no 'official' document anywhere that was issued at the time of my birth. My parents adopted me when I was eleven months old, at which time I was given a name and the birth certificate applied for. My mother doesn't remember ever receiving anything other than the document she gave me.


Guess I could never run for President.


Edited to add: a few more complications - I was adopted from a Catholic orphanage in Wash DC. Records of my birth parents sealed. My Mom and Dad were not given any information other than the fact that I was actually born somewhere in the mid-west and some physical characteristics of the man and woman responsible for my creation.


Of course, should I decide to run for Pres, I supposed the Feds could dig up the facts.(This message has been edited by gwd-scouter)

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Mine is in a box right next to my desk. It is from New York in the 1980s.


Its a "Certifiicate of Birth Registration."


It says on it that it is proof my birth is registered and that the original birth certificate is on file at the New York State Department of Health, Vital Records Section and a copy is also on file at the local registrar.



What we really need is the federal government to come and fix this problem. They could make a simple and efficient standard for all the states. They seem called on to fix every other problem. Thats in the Constitution right?

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The title of the document is dependent upon the individual state. What I described was the description of the process in Hawaii at the time. A birth certificate is a state issued document that is filled out in the hospital by the attending physician and witnessed. It is a legal document generated at the point of birth. Death certificates are the same. Someone not born with an attending physician would not have the same document. They are filled out by the physician who declared the patient dead on a state form. The state of Hawaii should have on file the original paper birth certificate. They would issue for most purposes the computer generated certificate that has been displayed. Many states do this. The original is filed away and an official form is generated. Most people filled out a form for their first driver's license that is kept but they are issued a different form.


Once again, I did not say that I subscribed to these theories. I was trying to elucidate the issues. Obviously, some are as blinded by their adoration as are those of their dislike of the new president.

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Hey GWD, if you run for President, the Feds won't have to run down anything. Your complete dossier including birth parents and adoptive parents names and foibles and peccadilloes and yours would be known, published, broadcasted and blogged before you could tie a Bowline on a Bight (I would say french bowline, but then someone would say I should have said Freedom bowline and who wants that?)

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Yah, sorry, vol, you're gettin' things all backward. Birth Certificates/Certificates of Live Birth are issued by the state, not by the hospital. The hospital's certification to the state may or may not be on file, but honestly there are plenty of home births as well. The state officials in Hawaii have dutifully indicated that all of Obama's birth records are in order. A State's certification by law establishes citizenship (which is why yeh can use the state's certificate to cross international borders). And no, some completely unrelated party should not be granted standing in some cockamamie lawsuit.


All this is trumped by the fact that there's a birth announcement in the Honolulu paper published at the time of Obama's birth. Unless yeh figure that Obama's parents, the hospital, and the newspaper were all colluding 47 years ago just in case this boy might some day run for president, that's da final nail in the coffin for this nutty racist claptrap.




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Hah! There we go. Anybody who wants to know anything about his/her past can just run for Prez! No problem! I saw a guy on TV a bit ago who was suffering from amnesia and couldn't remember who he was or where he was from. He should run for Prez!


I'm not blinded by adoration for anybody, but I may be a bit jaded by all this nitpicking about what does or does not constitute a "real" birth certificate. I still have a hard time with expecting Obama to produce some obscure document that may or may not be on file somewhere but isn't normally accessed. How many other Hawaiians can produce their hospital birth record? My husband went to Diving School in Hawaii in the 60's, and his diving certification was supposed to be on file permanently, but when he tried to get a copy of it, he couldn't. I know that's not exactly the same as a Birth Cert., but still. I think it's an unrealistic burden to put on anybody.


There was question about whether John McCain would fit the "Native Born" criteria, too (because it's not well defined in the constitution what that means). I thought the people griping about that were being petty also.



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I think you might be picking nits over vol's post. You are right, a birth certificate is a state issued item. For a child born in a hospital, the state has no idea of that birth until the attending physician/hospital staff provides the details to the state so the certificate can be issued. You don't get one without the other.


What the conspiracy theory wingnuts want is to see the "old" style document that was produced back in the era Obama was born in. I have a copy of my birth certificate from 1957. It is black with white text and has al sorts of data regarding date, time, mother, father, doctor, etc. I imagine that if I contacted the state today and requested a copy, I'd get something very similar to what Obama put on his site. It would be a modern day form certifying I was born in Oklahoma on said date. To conspiracy theory wingnuts, that isn't good enough and is "easily" forged. They desire something from the original era with a seal on it that I guess could be provem by carbon dating for crying out loud. I have a hunch that it still wouldn't be good enough and they would claim that George Soros has the resources to fake even something like that. Bottom line is that officials from the state of Hawaii have said that the documents exist and are authentic and that Obama was a natural born citizen. For those that believe in conspiracy theories, nothing will ever be enough.

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Firstly, has anyone produced any "official" stuff to show Mr. Obama was born anywhere ELSE than Hawaii? Thot not.


More examples: My most significant other was born in Galveston Texas. Family lost all paper records in one of their local hurricanes. Wife wants to apply for a passport. Email writes away to Texas Bureau of Records for a "copy" of her "Birth Cerificate". Gets back a computer printed page labeled "Record of Life Birth", signed and imprinted.

Me, I have a paper before me (I want a passport too), Labeled "Birth Registration Notice" that pronounces that "a certificate of birth has been filed with the State Registrar of Vital Statistics" (Maryland) and lists my name , pop's name, mom's name (maiden) and the date(60 years previous) (signed) by the State Registrar, stamp imprint.



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