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The whole Mormon thing - prop 8 in CA

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I would happily vote YES on Prop 8!


I'm very happy the Mormon Church is helping fund the Yes on 8 initiative; in fact, I also sent in a contribution. Marriage is more than just two individuals in love; homosexuality is a complex disorder and something not to be promoted.

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Do you know what you get when you mix politics and religion?




I do have a bone to pick with the LDS/BSA relationship people. Last summer, number one son went to world jambo and visited the Faiths exhibits. He spoke with Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Hindus, Buddhist, Sikhs, Mormons and just about every other major religion known in the world. Many gave religious tracts and documents (the one from the Sikhs was particularly interesting.) He came home with a Jewish Scout prayer book (which he gave to a troop member as a Bah Mitzvah gift), a Book of Mormon and a Koran.


Interestingly, only the LDS church asked for his name and address and then used that information to send people to our home. To me, that was over the line and a violation of his privacy. I know that our/my sensibilities about privacy of the youth participants isn't necessarily shared around the world, but I don't think that sort of thing would have been tolerated within the US. Quite obviously people here in the states were involved in the decisions to set this up. And you cant write it off as an over zealous volunteer. The program had to be decided and supported at a fairly high level.


Of course, the guys who showed up at our doorstep were very courteous, polite and persistent. I had to very pointedly tell them I didn't appreciate how they came to get my son's name and to please not come back before they stopped coming by.

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"To me, that was over the line and a violation of his privacy"


He could have refused. Sometime around 1968 my mother explained that I needed to be very careful about giving my address to strangers. Today's kids are sooo much smarter and soooo much more street savvy than we were back then, aren't they?

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""homosexuality is a complex disorder and something not to be promoted."


And that's a load of hogwash, right there."


I'm not saying it is or it isn't. -My problem is that I don't know what a "complex disorder" is.


I'm thankful that I live in SW PA where it looks like the next referendum will be about a drinks tax! Of course I don't support that one!!



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As a non-Mormon Christian, my beliefs differ greatly from theirs. For a long time I gravitated between being a "slam the door in their face Chrisitian", and being an "argue how wrong they are until the cows come home Christian". I have since become a "No thank you, but have a nice day" Christian.


My beliefs have not changed, but actually strengthened. While I have doubts that their beliefs will get them into Heaven, I admire their dedication to their faith. If more Christian young men were out spreading the true Gospel, we could fill Heaven with Believers!


I will on occaision spend some time chatting with the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses who show up at my door. It's a great opportunity to lead them toward Christianity. I think most people won't take the time to do this because they are actually weak believers.


Many folks spend little time in church or studying the Word, but are quick to call themselves Christians. They staunchly defend their "faith". They fear other religions, but really don't know much about their own. As your own Faith grows, you learn there is little to fear about other religions.


Indeed, I would rather stand beside someone with a strong faith which is different than mine, than someone who poses as a Chrisitan. At least the non-Christian stands for something! I can respect and tolerate that difference. From a Scouting standpoint, I need to know my fellow Scouters are "good people" and have faith in a Creator. That differs from my personal religious viewpoint that being a "good person" gets you "zip", "zero", "nada", "nothing", in terms of getting into Heaven.


Mormons, Hindus, Jews, whatever, are all welcome into Scouts!

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My point of this whole discussion is I am fine with having a difference of opinion. Re the two boys who approached my daughter - I would have not had an issue, if they had not as TWOCUBDAD said, they had asked for email, address and phone number.


And yes GoldW, of COURSE she didnt give it out, but as to parents, why are THEIR parents/church/etc encouraging soliciting young girls (or boys in the case of the above) to get phone numbers. And I agree that at the tender age of 13 my child has more intellectual smarts than common sense, but that is definately not a generational thing. I am of the Judge Judy ilk that until you are over 25 you are not fully "cooked". I think I CAN give myself a pat on the back that my daughter TOLD ME instead of giving the info out!


As to homosexuality being a "disorder", having a best friend who is gay and having spent WITH my kids time at their house (including, heaven forbid, OVERNIGHT!) I just disagree. I would encourage you to read more about it and realize that there are probably a number of gay folks you deal with daily. But again, your opinion is okay. But how would you like it if I came to YOUR house, and said "I am just encouraging you to vote" and handed you a list of why you should vote PRO gay marriage AND wanted to talk about how evil YOU were. OR spoke to your kids about it - or put up signs near your kids school.


And as to "NARRACTICONG(?)" with regard to the zip zilch nada into heaven, again that is your opinion. But again its YOUR OPINION, not everyone's. Lots of folks and religions do NOT take the bible literally and do not have your beliefs. Which is okay.


Some of the most influential folks in my life were those with whom I disagreed on certain political/moral/religious issues. My favorite boss of all time had an ongoing discussion with me about Madonna. He thought she was corrupting the youth and immoral, I said I liked her music and had no problem with kids hearing it. And heck, that was the late 80's, early 90's. Before the Brittany spears, etc. But we still got along and had GREAT discussions, however, neither was trying to "convert" the other.


I think Colin Powell summed it up succinctly when he said "the question shouldnt be is he (Obama) a muslim but if he is what does it matter?"

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Ho- hum.


One starts off with the beliefs that one's parents/raisers impart by instruction, example or lack there of.

One then has the freedom to accept that belief or reject it or find an alternative to it, as one is led by one's life and experience. One's actions and life direction is, determined in large part, by one's underlying faith or belief system. Indeed, one's actions indicate the actuality and strength of the belief,expressed in words or not. Hence the term "hypocracy" comes to mind.

If someone comes and challenges that belief, I think that is a good thing. If one can not defend that faith with logic or experience or just plain "feeling", then perhaps that faith needs closer examination by that believer. Or the questioner.


"It is a sad reflection that many men hardly have any Religion at all; and most men have none of their own: For that which is the Religion of their Education, and not of their Judgement, is the Religion of Another, and not Theirs." = William Penn =


YiS & C



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Narraticong wrote: "That differs from my personal religious viewpoint that being a 'good person' gets you 'zip', 'zero', 'nada', 'nothing', in terms of getting into Heaven." His Scriptural source for that statement is John 14:6: "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."


You get to choose your belief and faith system. It's an eternal choice you make. Choose well. Christians are commanded to love all, but we're also commanded to proclaim both Law and Gospel. If you choose not Gospel, then you by default choose Law. God has shown very plainly, in OT and NT, that He has a single standard for those who choose Law: Absolute and utter perfection. I certainly cannot meet God's standard absent Christ.


Be well.

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The only 'real' problem I have had with the LDS was one time we had a young man on summer camp staff who happened to belong to that church. That was an interesting summer..we had a Buddhist, a Jewish staffer and at least two Catholics and everyone else was either mainline Protestant or evangelical Protestant. For the most part he was a great worker and very popular with the other staffers and campers alike but he was the one with the agenda to 'convert'. He would manage to somehow steer every conversation toward his religion. There were complaints. The Camp Director saw what he was doing and didn't hire him back this past summer and he would have done the same had it been a Bible thumping Baptist acting in such a manner. The young man has expressed an interest in coming back and the CD says he would be happy to rehire him will have to understand that certain activities are just not permitted while working on camp staff.


Apart from that the LDS units have been great to work with. One Unit leader was the ASM for my recent Wood Badge Course and he will be the CD for the course next summer.



I'm glad I'm not in California. I'm just in a state that after years of being taken for granted by one party is still even as I type being constantly courted for votes. Its a bit different.

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GW -- of course he could have refused. And had the contact come at the mall or over the phone, I have no doubt that his radar would have been on and he would have declined. The point is that they were using the aegis of Scouting to collect information. Do we not have standards regarding how we handle such information?

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Mormons on their mission have a calling and that is to convert. They have to collect information to do that. It isn't that different from what we do, "do you want information about Scouting?" and then the phone calls start.


I had Mormon friends in college none ever tried to convert me. They'd answer questions but that was about it. The Christians that got on my nerves were the fundamentalists who'd manage to working into almost every conversation that I was going to hell because I drank beer and chased girls, usually unsuccessfully (successful at beer drinking, unsuccessful at girl catching, the two may have been related).


Then there are the Christians that lie to get you into their dens. One day a pretty girl struck up a conversation with a friend and after a bit of non-religious talk, mentioned that she and her housemates were having a party and would like us to come. Pretty girl? Party? Sure. We get to this big old house off campus and there's probably 50 to 75 people there. Hey! Looks good. Until we're handed a bible as we pass through the door and the conversion talk starts.


I'll take ten Mormons over a single bible thumper anyday.

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"Your hogwash is hogwash. The apologists have tried to convince us for decades that it's "normal" but it isn't."


And ignorant people with no training in psychology/psychiatry who have done no scientific research in the area have tried to convince us for decades that it is a "mental disorder", but it isn't.


Mr. Boyce didn't call it "abnormal", he called it a "complex disorder". In the field of mental health, that has a very specific meaning. So unless he wants to pull out his bona fides and quote some peer reviewed, accredited scientific research to support that, it's hogwash.


Normal, on the other hand, is an opinion totally in the eye of the beholder (or the majority). And we know what they say about opinions....

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Being lefthanded is not normal. Studies show that more than 90% of people are right handed! So this is clearly the way people were meant to be! The founding fathers were right handed! There is simply no good reason for people to be left handed and intervention at a young age can correct this unfortunate disorder. In the mean time, we should take steps to prevent the spread of lefthandedness in our society - including limiting the signing of legal documents to RIGHT hands! A constitutional amendment defining legal documents as those signed by right hands only would go a long way towards discouraging these anti-social deviants.





Oops, wrong thread.



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