A game with a gurpose? What purpose?

[GaHillBilly 10]

Thanks to Kudu, I'm aware that B-P never said "scouting is a game with a purpose". But, he did say something similar if less succinct and memorable.

 

I'm also aware that B-P's purpose is not mine: making good citizens for the British Empire is not what I'm working toward.

 

Nor do I share B-P's philosophy and anthropology: I don't believe man is the apex of evolution, as nature spirals upward to an ever higher and more majestic destiny; I don't believe that men (or boys) naturally become stronger and more ethical, or believers in God, simply because they have experiences in nature, even when those experiences are hard; I don't believe that encountering nature reliably teaches spiritual truth; I don't believe that selflessness is the apex of ethical behavior. The optimistic evolutionism and romantic view of nature that B-P shared with so many during his era is now passe' and not believed as a 'reality-statement' by anyone, though some in Wicca and in the elements of the environmental movement apparently accept it as a statement of their 'faith-fantasy'.

 

I understand what purpose Scouting serves in the LDS church: it prepares young men for their Mission.

 

I understand what purpose Scouting did serve, for the UMC and American Legion and Optimist Clubs. When those organizations were committed to the concept of the 'ethical American citizen, holding to Christian values', Scouting fit in nicely. As best I can tell, the American Legion and Optimist type organizations are now philosophically adrift and their membership is dying off. The UMC (and similar Protestant denominations) has moved, probably irretrievably, toward post-modernist and leftist values, and are more likely to teach shame in being an American, than pride of citizenship.

 

So, what's left?

 

I don't mean this question facetiously. I'm really struggling to work out what purpose Scouting can serve for orthodox (not "Orthodox", much less "Greek or Eastern Orthodox") Christians like myself.

 

My son's troop is chartered by a conservative Protestant church, and is listed in their Sunday bulletin as one of the 'ministries' of the church. But, neither the leadership of the church, nor the SM (who is a member) have any clear purpose or direction, other than the vague idea that 'Scouting is a good thing for boys'.

 

Now, I'm a firm believer in the idea that, if you don't "know where" you're going, that's where you'll end up: "know where" . . . or rather 'nowhere'. I'd rather not go there; I've already done that too much in my life.

 

Now, in a sense, I'm posing this question, as an orthodox Christian, to orthodox Christians. There's no way a modernist, or a Mormon, or a Hindu can share purpose with me at the most foundational level. But, like it or not, we all live in the same reality, and thus all of us have to deal with the same truths, at least at some level. So, I don't want to exclude non-Christian responses.

 

Anyhow, as I've tried to think about this, it seems to me that there are several fundamental Christian truths that form the basic constraints of any formulation of a Christian purpose for Scouting.

 

Perhaps the first constraint is 'grace'. Christianity, together with all other religions, teaches that we all need a different sort of life than the one have. (Else, religion would be superfluous!). Christianity, together with almost all other religions, teaches that this different sort of life is -- IN PART -- a matter of living differently, and ethically. Christianity, together with almost all other religions, tells us that we must make a serious effort to 'do better'.

 

Of course, the specific content of 'doing better' varies by religion, though there is some overlap.

 

But, orthodox Christianity, UNLIKE every other religion, teaches that no effort on our part will ever be sufficient, in part because we are all too weak, and in part because we are all too evil. Orthodox Christianity, UNLIKE every other religion, teaches that God offers us grace -- divine help, forgiveness, & favor that takes us beyond what we can do, or will 'will to do' -- and that without grace, no one is 'saved'.

 

Scouting knows nothing about either grace or forgiveness, in anything I've seen from the BSA or B-P. Yet, for an orthodox Christian, grace, and the need for grace among all men, is foundational.

 

In my own thinking, one reason why it is so very important to be honest -- to be "trustworthy" -- about Scouting and ranks and merit badges . . . and about the constant failure to abide by the Scout oath, law, slogan and motto . . . is that these failures exemplify precisely the sort of failures which can and should teach men and boys of their need for grace! When those of us who are orthodox Christians allow these failures to be covered up, to be "there-there'd", to be concealed with phrases like, "boys will be boys" or we're "doing our best" (especially when we're not!), or perhaps worst of all, "that's just how it's done", we conceal with our lies the truth our our own, and our boys, inadequacy!

 

Another constraint, as I see it, is Christian truthfulness, both in the case above, and because training in truthfulness trains boys to accept what is true of God.

 

(Here, I'm being very orthodox, in the very old-fashioned sense, that recognizes that faith's object is nothing more or less than what may be reasonably known of God and His grace toward us. In traditional orthodoxy, faith follows knowledge, not the other way round!)

 

As an orthodox Christian, I am convinced that a commitment to seek and serve what is true is essentially and fundamentally a commitment to serve God. So, if I teach boys to seek truth, in spite of the pain it brings and difficulty it causes, I am also preparing them to seek and see God.

 

A third constraint I see is more of a direct conflict. Both B-P and BSA teach that selflessness is the highest value. Oddly, many orthodox Christians believe this as well, in spite of the fact that this idea is contrary both to orthodox theology and to the Scriptures, which teach that Christians pursue their own best interest and greatest happiness by embracing their position as God's children and subjects. (Likewise, Christ's sacrifice is explained, not as selfless, but rather on a 'sacrifice now, benefit later' basis (Hebrews 12:2))

 

Orthodox Christian teaching is that doing what is good, is not selfless, but rather the selfishness of a man who understands the true nature of reality.

 

There are three of the constraints I see, as I attempt to think through what should be the purpose which governs Christian involvement in Scouting.

 

So . . . what do you think? What purpose to do you see for Scouting? On what basis?

 

 

GaHillBilly

 

[Rythos 10]

How about service to others? Scouting in my area makes this a point of emphasis and I assume the same is true elsewhere.

 

The bible says (depending on your translation of course)

 

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from

youselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast."

 

The next sentence which most people don't mention is

 

"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do " (Eph. 2:8,9)

 

While service does not equal salvation it would appear to be an important part of what God has in mind for those who follow him.

 

Ry

[mikecummings157 10]

The purpose is very simple; Character Development, Citizenship, and Personal Fitness.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

What mike said. Scouting is not a religion. It encourages the practice of religion, it requires a belief in a higher power (a requirement that would be met by the practice of a religion), it sometimes serves as a framework for the practice of religion or at least a belief in a higher power (i.e. Scout Sunday/Sabbath, wearing religious emblems, prayers at ceremonies, grace before meals, etc.), and by some definitions it may be a "religious organization" (but please everybody, don't start on that again), but it is not a religion. It requires no particular belief about the nature, name, and other attributes of the higher power (I'm not saying "God" here because then people might infer a Judeo-Christian meaning which is not intended). It does imply certain beliefs about the nature of man (i.e., we can do good if we really try) and the role of man (serving BOTH self and others, and country), but these are not tied to any particular religion's beliefs about these subjects.

 

I also have to say to GaHillBilly, and I always pick my words very carefully when I (perhaps foolishly) say things like this, your views on selfishness vs. selflessness do not match what I have understood to be Christian teaching. I do not pretend to be an expert on Christian teaching, as I am not a Christian, orthodox or otherwise, but that is my understanding, and maybe some of the other Christians in this forum might want to weigh in that. I also think that most religions, and the BSA as well, strike a balance between duty to self and duty to others. You do for others what you can, but not at total sacrifice of yourself. After all, if you're dead, or living in a gutter somewhere, you can't do much for others.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

B-P said, and I know this to be true, that Scouting is to be a school of character and train young men to be good citizens.

[GaHillBilly 10]

NJCubScouter wrote

 

"your views on selfishness vs. selflessness do not match what I have understood to be Christian teaching. I do not pretend to be an expert on Christian teaching, as I am not a Christian, orthodox or otherwise, but that is my understanding, and maybe some of the other Christians in this forum might want to weigh in that. I also think that most religions, and the BSA as well, strike a balance between duty to self and duty to others."

 

As I noted, it's also not what many Xians assume to be Xian teaching. Rather it's one of those things that people (Xian's in this case) ASSUME they disagree with, till they look at the evidence.

 

Consider, for example, this old statement from the Westminster Confession (1646): "Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever". I remember, as a boy, being puzzled about that, because hardly anything I was being taught about Xianity involved enjoyment! Nevertheless, there it is. On the Catholic side of things, you have the whole tradition of stuff like St. Theresa's "ecstasy" in God, except that now we usually use the word "orgasm" instead.

 

There is a long tradition of Xians in various times and places being embarrassed about how pleasurable, at least ultimately, Xianity is supposed to be. The reasons I know about for this are complex, and I'm sure there are more reasons than I know!

 

But the fact is simple: we are not called to be selfless, but are rather called -- if you'll forgive the ripoff -- "to be all we can be", but by being what we were created to be, as God's child and subject! We are to do good because it is what is enjoyable (ie, brings joy), if not immediately, then certainly ultimately. Modern men, and modern Xians, are often embarrassed by the fact that Christ Himself appeals to people's self-interest so 'crudely' -- serve Me in My Kingdom in bliss forever, or go your own way in eternal misery -- but what He said and taught, rather than what some foolish preachers and teachers have taught, is the core of the faith!

 

In Christianity, it's not so much a balancing of your duty to yourself against your duty to others (though it's been expressed that way, in error I think) as it is doing your duty to God, BY doing your duty to others AND yourself. Christian teaching is clear that by trying to serve yourself first, you actually end up doing yourself horrible injury! (Now, I'm not saying that accepting these principles automatically makes the inevitable juggling of priorities of time, effort and resources easy!)

 

However, if you want to consider this rather complex issue further, I'd prefer to spin it off, rather than to distract from this thread.

 

GaHillBilly

 

[GaHillBilly 10]

OGE wrote,

"B-P said, and I know this to be true, that Scouting is to be a school of character and train young men to be good citizens."

 

. . . as I noted myself.

 

But, this is not an adequate purpose for Christians, UNLESS, you define "citizen" as "citizen of God's kingdom". That is a purpose I've considered. Indeed, that's very much the purpose I understand LDS churches to hold. However adopting would almost certainly entail a level of explicit evangelism that would exclude most boys.

 

GaHillBilly

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Sorry there, you lost me. I guess I don't understand the concept of the thread

[BrentAllen 10]

I see the purpose as preparing young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetime by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. Those would include duty to God, and being reverent. We try to run our Troop in a manner that glorifies God. This can be challenging when we have members who are Christian, Jewish and Hindu. :-)

 

I don't agree with your idea of selfishness, unless nearly everything can be sort of twisted to end up at that point. I don't see how that jibes with John 15:13 -

Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

That would appear to be a very selfless act.

 

God created us in His image, and He is a giver. He gave us life, this world, everything we have. He gave us his Son, that we might have eternal life. I believe we get closer to God when we give, we are living more in His image. This thought process could be viewed two ways - one is selfless, giving of one's self. The other would be we do this because we are selfish; we do it because we want to be closer to God, and through these acts, we get where we want to be.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, I understand GaHillBilly's point, eh? Or at least I think I do.

 

Sure, the BSA's goals are to teach character, fitness, and citizenship, eh? But those aren't explicitly Christian goals. And a Christian is goin' to honestly view citizenship and such a bit differently than the BSA intends, perhaps. "Citizen of the Kingdom" as GaHillBilly puts it.

 

So what's a good Christian scouter, in a unit sponsored by a conservative Christian denomination, supposed to do so as to do his/her duty as a Christian leader, and his/her duty to da mission of the CO?

 

I'd suggest prayer. Be an example of someone livin' a prayerful life to the boys. Pray yourself. Pray with them. Lift up your hearts together as companions on life's great adventure.

 

I'd suggest sacrifice and service. He among you who would lead must be the servant (or slave!) of all (Mark 10:44). Be an example of humble and committed service. Wash da feet of your scouts, and teach 'em to do the same for each other.

 

I'd suggest courage and seekin' adventure. It is a truly terrifyin' thing to be confronted by the love of God, and called to service. Doesn't take a burning bush or bein' knocked off a horse. How many turn away from da path out of fear? Out of longing for comfort and surety? Teach the lads how to be open to adventure, how to eschew comfort and to trust without surety, and you will be preparin' 'em for their Call.

 

Yah, that's enough to get yeh goin' anyway.

 

Beavah

 

(as an aside, I think you're overstatin' da case on selfishness, GaHillBilly. We who would follow Christ are told by da Master Himself that we must deny our very selves, and take up our cross, eh? (Matthew 16:24). Like Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane we stand on this side of our Good Friday, sweatin' blood and prayin' that sort of test pass us by. The sure and certain hope of Resurrection is still just hope, grounded in faith and love, to be sure, but hope. Denial of self, by contrast, is real and present.)

[GaHillBilly 10]

Brent Allen wrote:

 

"I see the purpose as preparing young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetime by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. Those would include duty to God, and being reverent. We try to run our Troop in a manner that glorifies God. This can be challenging when we have members who are Christian, Jewish and Hindu. :-)"

 

If you are only teaching Judeo-Christian character values . . . certainly there's common ground with between Christians and Jews. Of course, some Jewish groups perceive rather different obligation to fellow Jews than they do to goyim. But, with Hindu, I think the difficulties would be very great.

 

 

"I don't agree with your idea of selfishness, unless nearly everything can be sort of twisted to end up at that point. I don't see how that jibes with John 15:13 - 'Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.' That would appear to be a very selfless act.

 

God created us in His image, and He is a giver. He gave us life, this world, everything we have. He gave us his Son, that we might have eternal life. I believe we get closer to God when we give, we are living more in His image. This thought process could be viewed two ways - one is selfless, giving of one's self. The other would be we do this because we are selfish; we do it because we want to be closer to God, and through these acts, we get where we want to be."

 

Brent, I started a much longer reply and got gobsmacked. I've known for a long time that selflessness was not, fundamentally, a Christian virtue. Christians are called to be ourselves truly or in Army language, "to be all we were made to be", not to be selfless.

 

Many selfish acts ARE evil, but not fundamentally because they are selfish. Rather, they are covetous (wanting what God has not given you) or larcenous (wanting what God has given another) or foolish (rejecting God's wisdom in favor of your own stupidity) and so on. But other selfish acts, such as forgiving others SO THAT I can be forgiven are in fact virtuous.

 

Like I said, I got gobsmacked. The case against selfishness as a Xian virtue is absolutely overwhelming. I'd never argued it before, so I had never tried to marshal the evidence. My family knows what I think on this, and why, and they agree to the extent they understand. But, I'd not considered it worthwhile to duke it out with any ministers: there have been other issues, if any duking out was to be done! So when I started to do so in this case, I was stunned.

 

I considered just backing off, rather than tackling the issue. But I can't, because it's central not peripheral to my question of Scouting purpose.

 

B-P, along with many other humanists of his day, made selflessness the apex of his pyramid of virtues, and in doing so turned Xian inside out. Obviously, I can't find a Xian foundation for Scouts in that direction.

 

I suppose it may be best to spin off topic on selflessness as virtue, and deal with that, before returning to this. Otherwise, that issue will sabotage this discussion. But, it will be several days before I can tackle that. I'm taking my own boys hiking tomorrow. And, Sunday after church I've got to go check out a possible new camping site for the troop.

 

Meanwhile, if I can be a bit presumptuous, let me suggest that you go through Matthew, chapter by chapter, and look at the motivation offered for doing what we are called to do.

 

Best wishes,

 

GaHillBilly

 

[Kudu 186]

GaHillBilly writes:

 

"Thanks to Kudu, I'm aware that B-P never said "scouting is a game with a purpose." But, he did say something similar if less succinct and memorable."

 

I always read GaHillBilly's articulate posts with great interest.

 

No aphorism has done more damage to American Scouting than "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose."

 

It is ALWAYS the justification for making Scouting a dreadful BORE for boys: Even though Baden-Powell wrote time and time again that Scouting is the OPPOSITE OF SCHOOL, the phrase always justifies model-based logic like: "Fitness is an Aim of Scouting? OK, how about achieving that Aim with Tenderfoot pull-ups just like SCHOOL?" "Citizenship is an Aim of Scouting? Well how about we make Scouts sit through three boring Citizenship Merit Badges, just like SCHOOL?"

 

Likewise (as Baden-Powell warns), it is the OPPOSITE of Scouting to short-circuit it into SUNDAY SCHOOL!

 

The actual author of "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose" is not Baden-Powell, it is William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt. The whole quote is as follows:

 

"Yes, to a boy Scouting is a game--a wonderful game, full of play and full of laughter, keeping him busy, keeping him happy. Scouting is 'learning by doing' things that are enjoyable--exciting things!

 

That's the strength of Scouting! A boy becomes a Scout for the sheer joy there is in it.

 

To you and me Scouting is a game, also--but it is more than game of fun. To us, it is a game with a purpose--the purpose of helping boys to become men by training them for citizenship" [bold type emphasis in original].

 

See:

 

http://inquiry.net/ideals/scouting_game_purpose.htm

 

What is NOT generally understood is that the Traditional "SIX Methods of Scouting" changed in 1972 when Green Bar Bill's program was completely rejected by the Leadership Development and urban Scouting crowds. Before then the FIRST METHOD OF SCOUTING was:

 

"The Scout Way (1. A Game, NOT a Science)" [emphasis in original].

 

See:

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/index.htm

 

Green Bar Bill borrowed the phrase "A Game, NOT a Science" from Baden-Powell.

 

Note that in the "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose" passage he uses Baden-Powell's SINGLE aim of Scouting ("training them for citizenship"), rather than the BSA's TWO Aims of Scouting at that time, or the BSA's current THREE Aims of Scouting.

 

Since both the number of BSA "Aims of Scouting" and the number of "Methods of Scouting" have changed over the years, it should be easy to understand that they are only a THEORY, something tacked onto Scouting by committees.

 

So this is my answer, GaHillBilly: Scouting is a Game. Period.

 

Forget the "Purpose."

 

"Purpose" is like "Meaning." There is no inherent "Purpose" or "Meaning" of Scouting. To look for such a "Purpose" is to turn the GAME into a SCIENCE.

 

It is a GAME!

 

The "Purpose" of Scouting is what you BRING to it.

 

Like it or not, only YOU can become the expert on the question you have posed because it is YOU that has framed the question.

 

The only way to answer it is for YOU to get out in front and show some leadership.

 

To do so, simply:

 

1) FORGET ALL THE THEORY,

 

2) Get your son's Patrol out in the woods,

 

3) Observe your interaction with his Patrol with fresh eyes.

 

Are you an outdoorsman? Do you have enough charisma to inspire Scouts to take command in an outdoor situation?

 

If so, then I suggest that you and another adult strap on your backpacks and take your son's Patrol backpacking on a regular basis with the goal of having them take control.

 

The distance is not important: A quarter of a mile at a Scout camp is fine at first. If you want to hike further, wait until the Scouts come up with that idea themselves someday.

 

Real Scouting also depends on Service for Others projects. For what it is worth, Baden-Powell did NOT count service hours for what Americans call "Advancement." Service is done without thought for repayment in Traditional Scouting because IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

 

But first and foremost: Central to Baden-Powell's Scouting is the idea that the BACKWOODS is a special place.

 

We can debate the theory if you wish, but theory is secondary to the actual experience. The general idea is that if you spend enough time in the backwoods with the Scouts in the LEAD, then something about the simplicity of the natural environment will reveal to a sharp eye the character of your Scouts and give you ample opportunities to influence them as far as the level of your talent and the clarity of your insight allows.

 

Real Scouting is all about jumping into the FLOW of the GAME.

 

Kudu

(This message has been edited by kudu)

[Kahuna 172]

I'm not a Christian, I'm Buddhist, but from either perspective I think our religion teaches us a certain viewpoint on how to conduct our lives in ways that are beneficial to us and to others, both here and (if your religion teaches it) in what comes after this.

 

Scouting is Scouting. Religion is religion. We don't use Scouting to promote our religion, but we, as leaders, conduct ourselves in accordance with those principles our religions teach.

 

The purpose of Scouting is character, citizenship and fitness, as others have said. One of the tenets of Scouting is that character can best be formed through belief in a Higher Power.

 

I think it's about that simple.