SCOUTING AMERICA:--A REORGANIZATION OF BSA

[RememberSchiff 3671]

We are bringing the BSA program to fewer families.

 

Now we can ignore that fact and make up excuses, say what a shame we sold off another camp, lost another troop, consolidated another council... that's the way it is, its sports, its video games, its the internet...there is no problem where I'm at.

 

Or we can can try to turn it around. Look at what others have done successfully and unsuccessfully. Why did Canada have a membership downturn but the United Kingdom an upturn? What are our competitors doing right (hint: after school program at the school - parents really like that plus ease and flexibility in participating)? Consider ideas that are new and old.

 

Stay the course? I worry that my grandchildren will only be able to participate in Scouting as an online course from their MyScouting account, as camps will be gone, liability insurance too high, volunteers too few.

 

 

 

[Bob White 20]

Pappy writes "I am only one of two new units to form in the past three years.

 

Not according to the web site of the council you claim to be in. They listed 2 new units in your district (your unit is not listed) in the three years, BUT they show 49 new units in the Council over the last three years. now with 6 districts in your council, (and if we exclude the district you say your unit is in) then the other districts are starting an averge of three units per district per year. The national average is 4 new units per district. So excluding your district your council is not doing too badly in that arena.

 

Your district however is starting fewer than 2 new units a year. Seems to be a very localized problem when you look at the actual figures.

 

 

 

[Hiromi 9]

Hi Bob,

 

Ours is a relatively new district in a reorganized council. There seems to be a lot of hard feeling around here about reorganization and a lost council camp. We used to be the seat of our own council. But after a mismanagement issue we lost it and the camp.

 

This bitterness may have affected the general mood of the scouting culture around here.

 

This was all before my time, so I am only speculating and relating hearsay.

 

Pappy

 

[Bob White 20]

And how many years ago did that happen?

[Hiromi 9]

I honestly don't know, Bob.

 

I think it was called Prairie Council. They had a big camp, and it was sold to a Church Group, Seventh Day Adventist, I think.

 

You probably could find out the facts quicker than I about when and why it happened. ALl I know is that it caused a lot of hard feelings with a few of the grey beards around these parts.

 

Pappy

 

[Bob White 20]

Let me help you. It was in 1993...15 years ago.

 

Am I understanding your post correctly, that you think one reason that new units are not being started is because 15 years ago the council merged.

 

A boy who was a tiger cub at the time is now graduating college. Do you really think that an organization might not want to charter a unit because 15 years ago the council moved its border?

 

Do you know why they had to merge. Because your scouting community did not suppport the scouting program it had. If the neighboring council had not agreed to absorb your debt there would be no scouting in your town.

 

Rather than carrying a grudge of 15 years the 'grey beards' in your district should be making a pilgrimage to the new coucil seat and thank them for saving scouting in their community.

 

In the mean time that local district committee and existing units needs to get a move on, they are not doing much to grow scouting in their area.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[hops_scout 9]

RememberSchiff,

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but here's my interpretation of your post..

 

"It's better we have large amounts of people in our units than it is to have a program that teaches the boys in our units morals and values that we believe in."

 

 

And I have to disagree. I truly believe that I live the Scout Oath and Law in my everyday life. I'm not perfect, but I try to uphold those values. I feel those things are important.

[RememberSchiff 3671]

No hops_scout. Today, we are reaching fewer families with the Boy Scout program. Less than half as many as when I was as a scout. And ironically, I am turning away great families because they have no religious affiliation or interest. What can you say to a dad who years later says "My son served two tours as a Marine in Iraq but he wasn't good enough for the Boy Scouts?". Something is wrong, his son would have been great scout. What do you think the chances are that this Marine's newborn son will be a scout? 0.

 

[Crew21_Adv 25]

Fellow Scouters,

 

I believe in the 1920's, there were maybe three Scouting organizations in the U.S.

 

I would say, they had similar foundations, but slightly different ideals.

 

Our BSA has remained mostly true to our foundations. But we have changed over the years. Fortunately, they were not radical and damaging changes. But they were will thought out, planned, piloted, and gradually implemented changes.

 

It took over 20 years for OA to go from an experiment to being accepted as a part of our BSA.

 

Tiger cubs took nearly twenty years before they could earn belt loops, and had a handbook with actual advancement requirements and electives inside. Most Cub Scout Packs did not really consider them to be Cubs and most did not recognizes them during Pack meetings. Finally, they changed from Tiger Group to a Tiger Den, and the Tiger badge of participation became the Tiger Rank.

 

I like the idea that BSA began about five years ago to reach out to more youth by using Soccer. But I have not heard about Soccer, BSA for about four years.

 

I am happy that BSA has opened surveys regarding the Boy Scout handbook. I am thankful that BSA consults with Scouters who have been registered for a while, as well as recently registered Scouters. I'm very pleased that the various BSA literature consults with skilled professionals, educators, clergy, and recreation experts.

 

I am certainly welcome to positive changes, while keeping our ideals that the BSA has maintained. Although, the thought of radical changes to our BSA does concern me.

 

I am personally not happy, with the thought of changing the BSA into a different program of Scouting America.

 

Pappy, A Scouting program, maybe similar to what you have described in Scouting America are the Baden Powell Scouts Association - U.S.. I have only read about them online. They have previous had a more extensive website a few years back. But now their website is more limited. Baden Powell Scouts Association - U.S. are apparently headquartered out of Connecticut. They have shared the same foundations of the BSA, while their ideas and methods have vastly differed from the BSA.

http://badenpowellscouts.org/

http://www.wfis.org.mx/wfis_na/

 

You have probably seen others comment to you about brianbuf. Humorously, He was also a member of this forum, who wanted immediate changes. Any of the recent positive changes that BSA was currently doing, this Scouter seemed to want to take credit for it. (As if he wrote the most recent handbook all by himself). He seemed to believe he alone was the Saviour of Scouting. He had built a webpage (which no longer exist) to tell us all the things he disagreed with the BSA. www.savescouting.org If he was not pulling our leg, he seemed to believe he was to be credited for any of the recent program changes BSA has published.

 

Rather than recommending to radically change the BSA into something else. Maybe you could do more research about other Scouting organizations which may be more liberal and what your troop's chartering organization and families are looking for.

 

If you are calm and welcoming to thorough well planned changes to the BSA I will try to listen to your comments. But if you want the radical changes, which are contrary to our BSA ideals and methods, I'm not interested.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[Hiromi 9]

Thanks Crew21,

 

I really liked the BP site when I visited it. The old Scouter pamphlets of BP have always made a lot of sense to me, and they seem to be bear little resemblance to the BSA materials for boys today.

 

We have kids read the founding documents of our nation, and learn of the people who founded our country and the reasons why, but in BSA there is short shrift paid to its genesis and the actual writings and illustrations of its founders. (Is BSA afraid the boys might get too many ideas and actually take over the darned thing?)

 

It seemed that BP's materials were better designed as "How To" and "Do It Yourself" books for boys that really lent itself to the notion of Boy lead and created Patrols. It had a real fun exciting game aspect to it. It was soaked with adventure and imagination It still inspires- hear that Bob WHite- BP's stuff still inspires.

 

BSA literature is lacking in this regard. IMHO

 

Pappy

(This message has been edited by Pappy)(This message has been edited by Pappy)

[Bob White 20]

but in BSA there is short shrift paid to its genesis and the actual writings and illustrations of its founders.

 

You would probably like to believe that because it would fit your argument, unfortunatley for you it has no basis in fact.

 

You can find the influences of the BSA founders: Baden-Powell, Boyce, Seton, Beard, and West, in nearly every aspect of the BSA today, from the merit badge program, to the outdoor skills, to the structure of the Councils, the hundreds of Scout camps, Wood Badge.

 

As far as finding their actualk writings, you will not find much of Baden-Powells actual writing in the UK handbooks anymore either. You have to be a little realistic, their writing styles and terminoligies are nearly 100 years old. The handbooks they wrote were written for kids of a different era. But the things they wrots about are still in the handbooks just in modern language. As for their illustrations, the only illustrators in the group are B-P and Seton and most their work is in black and white. B-Ps stuff is not going to be that interesting in todays publications for kids, and Setons was mostly wildlife and there was never much of it in the handbooks except for the first one that he wrote, and then there were only a few.

 

How pray tell would you know the comparisons between their writings and today's scoutings. By your own admission Pappy you have little knowledge or experience with the actual Scouting program and its methods, and you have also admitted that the 'style' of scouting you lead is losing scouts.

 

So where does your expertise on this topic supposedly spring from? You do not use today's program, you do not know much of the program of the early 1900s, and the methods you have created are not keeping youth in the program? If you actully knew of a better way then one would think you would a) be using it and b) be getting getting results from it than you are.

 

But by your own admission you are doing neither the scouting program of the past or present, and you are not retaining scouts with it.

[Hiromi 9]

By your logic Bob,

 

The only people on this forum qualified to speak their mind about the BSA in this forum are Scouters whose units have either retained or grown their membership. Is that right?

 

I don't have the figures in front of me Bob, but wouldn't that exclude a lot of volunteers from the discussion?

 

I'm sure that you have heard of the term "Throwing pearls before swine."

 

Wouldn't you admit that many great BSA programs (Mine excluded of course) fail to build their ranks and in fact lose enrollments through perhaps no fault of their own?

 

Going with your logic Bob, hardly any scouter in my District would be qualified to discuss the merits of this or that in the BSA because the ranks in my District are dwindling.

 

I wonder how many of the other members of this forum meet your standards Bob. Do you think everyone on this forum runs a unit that holds to the BSA guidelines as you would wish them too? Are you aware of how all the other forum members run their programs, or if they have programs?

 

I take risks - no doubt. I know of a few scouts I have lost to no fault BUT my own. I have lost scouts through the inevitability factors as well - I have had parents pull scouts because they wanted their boys in sports instead of scouting. I have had parents join my troop for the opposite reason as well. I began with no ASM and hardly any Dads for support, now I have two ASMs and a cadre of auxiliary dads.

 

I have retained on average about 20 scouts over 5 years, 2/3 always being cub, the other BS. One year I had 42, another it dropped to 12 (6 kids were out for sports but remained enrolled).

 

But I shouldnt have to justify my arguments with my qualifications. I have no idea how effective you are in all your volunteer duties over the years, and I really have no interest in learning about your efficacy in those matters. I have shared with the other forum members the way I do things, and they all can judge for themselves how credible a voice I am. But please dont pull that old standard used by every jealous school child and self loathing adult Who do you think YOU are?

 

I know pretty well who I am, and how effective I have been. I dont grade my efforts very high because I am pretty critical of myself (except on this forum where I blow my horn pretty loudly.)

 

I would only ask that you look to the merits or faults of my arguments and not to my credibility. You have a very very sorry history in this regard, and I wouldn't want you to put your foot into it more than you already have.

 

Pappy

 

[Eamonn 61]

One of my biggest fears used to be that traditional Boy Scout Troops would one day somehow be morphed into something very much like the Venturing program.

I enjoy reading about the early days of Scouting.

I have spent many happy hours in the White House at Gilwell Park reading about the early days.

Fred Jenkins who joined the 17th Fulham (Pioneers) as a Assistant Scout Leader, was a King's Scout. He had been a Boy Scout in London before WWII.

He told me stories of the good old days.

Pushing a trek cart loaded with all the gear to camp on Saturday afternoon. (Kids left school at 14 and many worked in stores that closed half day on Saturday).

Cleaning dirty dishes with wood ash from the fire, washing in washing soda.

Fred was a wonderful outdoors-man. He could tie every knot in the Ashly book of knots.

Sad thing was he wasn't very good with working with the Scouts.

Fred would show a Scout how to do something once, if the Lad didn't get it Fred seemed to be convinced that the Lad was a complete and utter idiot and wasn't worth his time.

I learned a lot from Fred, when we went away he took charge of cooking for the adults and helping me out.

 

Turning the clock back trying to make the youth of today fit into some Rockwell illustration type Scout unit is not going to work. Sure some younger Lads will find it fun for a while, but the novelty will wear off fairly quickly.

Visiting the past and seeing how things were done can be fun. The odd Camporee with a theme that looks back is not a bad thing.

But I don't think I know a Lad over 13 who wants to live in the past.

I'll admit that I'm a "Program Type".

I know that retaining the youth we do recruit is dependent on them having fun, adventure, friends and having them take on new and exciting challenges. I'm 101% for this, but and it's a big but. This isn't why we have a Scout movement (Yes movement.) This wasn't why BP and the other's who help shape Scouting started Scouting.

If we were to take the values out of Scouting, I'm not sure what we would have? I have no idea how many people would want to join or not join?

I do know that it wouldn't be Scouting.

I kinda think BP would turn in his grave.

The marker on his grave the dot in the circle (The tracking sign for gone home) would take on a whole new meaning. Maybe replacing it with a dogs head in the circle might be an idea?

(To signify gone to the dogs)

Eamonn.

[Bob White 20]

Pappy writes "The only people on this forum qualified to speak their mind about the BSA in this forum are Scouters whose units have either retained or grown their membership. Is that right?"

 

No, I am not saying that anyone should not be able to speak.

But if I were to choose who to listen to when it came to improving a program, I would choose to listen to people who had actually been successful at it...wouldn't you?

 

You have said in your own posts that you do not follow the program AND that what you do in not attracting and keeping Scouts. Before I listen to someone's opinion on how to improve the program, they first will have to show me they have some ability to be successful at what they are currently doing.

 

Do you think the scouting volunteers that get recruited to serve on national committees get picked because they are bad at scouting?

 

Pappy continues "Wouldn't you admit that many great BSA programs (Mine excluded of course) fail to build their ranks and in fact lose enrollments through perhaps no fault of their own?

 

In over thirty years as an adult scouter I have never seen a unit with great BSA program that failed to build its ranks. Units with strong programs succeed, units with poor profram deliver fail.

 

Pappy continues "I have retained on average about 20 scouts over 5 years,

 

That's interesting because in another post you said your unit was only three years old.

 

Finally Pappy wrote "But please dont pull that old standard used by every jealous school child and self loathing adult Who do you think YOU are?

 

Please, I know who you "think" you are. I am simply pointing out why your voluminous suggestions on changing a program you do not use into a program that you are not successful at, has not been met with oooh's and ahhhh's.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FireKat 10]

<long sigh>

other forum members the way I do things, and they all can judge for themselves how credible a voice I am

Pappy, you will probably take this the wrong way but I do not think you are getting the converts or backing you want.

I seriously would like to hear your ideas but I give up trying to find them in all the self back patting you insist on doing. You can go on and on and the only thing it does is make our eyes tired.  I tend to skip most of the cut and paste stuff as there is no way to discuss with that author their point of view it is empty.

Just tell us what you are doing and why YOU think it works or not.

I once had a friend who wished so bad to join our group that he did what you are doing. When we finally made him see that it did not impress us and to relax, he became a very good contributor  to our group.

BTW please try to stop the veiled insults you loose advocates that way.

Remember - face