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My college life was spent at the University of Missouri (Go Tigers!). Columbia, MO was one of the first (if not the first) to have a mandatory deposit on cans. It was somewhat difficult to implement because it was for a city, not the state. Anyway, not here to debate that policy but to give some background on the thinking at the time (mid 70s). Well, I happened to take a junior/senior level course from the history department that I can't remember the name of but taught about John Muir, conservationisn, etc. I was the only engineer in the class and made darn sure nobody knew my major! What surprised me about the views of the vast majority (I guess it was their Christian upbringing) that views mankind as separate from nature. In my view, we are just like the animals except for a much greater capability to foul our nest than most species.


Progress does have a price. Some are willing to pay it, others are not. Some solutions are easily done (don't buy bottled water folks) some much more complex - nuclear power. My only dismay is that much of the science and technology behind such issues is obfuscated by political posturing. Oh, what great leaders we have.

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acco40 writes,


What surprised me about the views of the vast majority (I guess it was their Christian upbringing) that views mankind as separate from nature. In my view, we are just like the animals except for a much greater capability to foul our nest than most species.


Pappy responds,


Acco Acco Acco, You really dont mean this.


How many of those animal species that didnt mess their nests discover generalized scientific principles? How many of these clean nesting animals created civilizations and made their environment adapt to them rather than the other way around?


It sounds to me that what you learned in college was a lot more of the same self-loathing anti-human crap that is now pretty entrenched in most universities and high schools.


Congratulations- you are part of the enlightened class. Good luck inspiring boys with your view of things, Mr. Engineer.


If you want to stay left of center but get a more balanced role of what man has done to distinguish himself as a species, read the writings of R. Buckminster Fuller Critical PathGrunch of Giants, Integrity, or even Synergetics (Which is pretty thick and mathematical/metaphysical).




(This message has been edited by Pappy)(This message has been edited by Pappy)

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GernBlansten writes:How would you classify Jesus? Girlyman? He did seem to care for people a lot.True enough.


I'm not Pappy, but I would add that when Jesus chased the money-changers out of the Temple, he wasn't exactly all "nicey-nice", was he?


There's also this little gem from Matthew 10:34 (KJV):Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.Doesn't sound like a "girlyman" to me!

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A parent has dominion over his children, but none would consider sacrificing a child for a better home or view.


Hmmm... yah.


Tell that to the million aborted kids a year.


It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish - Theresa of Calcutta



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Well, after reading all of this (and there's a lot here) the answer about a divison in the BSA is pretty obvious -- Of course it's coming - whether its 50/50 or whatever there are distinct "camps" here despite the spectrum of the many, many minor differences that we see in units..


The responses all combined- served to answer the question about the likleyhood of a schism as Pappy described based on my comments in another thread about "division". I was getting ready to say "It's sad" but it's just natural.. Division is as natural as nature and it would do Scouting some good to allow each camp to pursue their version of the program and not feel compromised so much.


Le Voyageur - Regarding the year 1260, 1860 etc... In case you have not noticed.. There is this logo that OUR BSA has -- It says " On My Honor - TIMELESS VALUES"... That's what they are dude - Timeless!.. The year does not matter .Get it !.


Before the fundamentals and principles of the Scouting movement are threatened into extinction, there will be a schism.. It is better to "decide on a side" than to live in constant squabble.


I know that I won't be a part of BSA anymore if BSA openly accepts homos and athiests - and a major chunk of my community will be right behind me in building a different program to replace it if it happens. Matter of fact, when the press was full of this sort of discussion, I had all sorts of folks calling asking to whom do they right the check to support Scouting's defense.. A schism could be the driving force behind a re-birth of the movement...


Which makes me wonder ...What would BP think of how successful Scouting has been for the UK given how lame and demoralized that once great country is.. He started the movement to invigorate the Empire and give its boys a greater sense of purpose and save them from the disease of a corrupt and industrialized society...

New Thread !!




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Timeless values indeed! Name one person who has a strongly held value who does not think it is timeless! :)


By using such marketing slogans, the BSA doesn't ruffle too many feathers. Is it natural to think that the "olden days" were better?


Lay a "value" on the table and let's debate it. No need to label it conservative, red, liberal, blue, etc. Was the concept of a den mother conservative? Red? Allowing men to be den leaders does in the recent pass make that value not timeless? Let's refrain from the labeling.


I teach my son's that LNT is great for Double H but not necessarily the best policy for a Scout camp. One can be very patriotic without becoming xenophobic.


Pappy - don't you think it is egotistical to think of mankind as not part of nature? Yes, for whatever reasons (the divine hand of God, opposable thumbs, etc.) we have evolved (or were created) with much higher intellect that most of the animal kingdom.


P.S. What is ladder day scouting? Some sort of climbing emphasis?

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Acco4, I'm sorry that I keep forgetting that "it's all relative" with some folks. That's right you know - his values, her values, my values, Joe's, Bob's, Hitler's values, Mao's, Pol Pot's, Clinton's, OJ's, Ted Bundy's, BP's, Abe Lincoln, throw em all in there - all equally important an none are allowed to be labeled good or bad - What color state ??


Good and Bad are timeless..


Of course its natural to look at the olden days to be better.. because it's natural that the olden days could have been better - or worse - Depends on the specifics don't it?


Generalizations don't hold to be truth in either direction.. So just because we are in the "modern times" does not mean things are better either.. Why should I have to say this??


Whether a DL is male or female is not a "value" or a "principle". It's a condition or state - a situation.. A different condition could be an example or symptom of a value shift, but it's not the value itself..



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