All things Pappy

[Hiromi 9]

Merlyn,

 

The School Board can say that they have never observed any Cub Scout representative or Cub Scout Pack ever demonstrating any discrimination based on religion, and or any promotion of a particular religious point of view. That would be very honest since the Cub Scout packs in Galesburg have traditionally been very secular in their outlook and have pretty much articulated the culture of the school they were based in. That goes for the folks at District and Council as well. They stay clear of mentions of God or faith in their promotional materials and activities.

 

The school board is being cynical in their move. None of the Districts around ours has this policy in place- just like our United Way of Greater Knox County is the only United Way chapter who put in place their Non-discrimination policy and refuses to support the scouts. Why did they do this? Because they are self - described progressives that are trying to change Boy Scouting or eradicate it. Not out of fairness or legality but out of ideological warfare.

 

I find your logic and your arguments to be the height of cynicism and mendacity. You know darned well that an atheist child (if there is such a thing), could be a Cub Scout and no one would give him a hard time.

 

You put forward strawman arguments Merlyn I find offensive and fake. Did you have your nose bloodied a lot as a kid? I wouldnt be surprised.

 

Pappy

(This message has been edited by Pappy)

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Pappy, don't pretend to know what I think.

 

The BSA has kicked out atheist kids before, and they've stated publically and in court that they can't join. Your local council and packs can't officially ignore that policy, either. You don't control membership, the national BSA does, and they say that atheists can't join, period.

 

I'm from Minnesota, and many small towns in this state are 100% white. This would not mean that an all-white organization would be considered a non-discriminatory organization in these towns, simply because they lack the oppotunity to exclude non-whites.

 

I'm sorry your local BSA council was unable to lie convincingly to the school board and try to present themselves as a non-discriminatory organization. The national BSA has been touting its discriminatory policies for quite a while.

 

I find your arguments offensive and fake, too. You don't seem to like getting your nose bloodied by the school board slamming the door in your face.

[Hiromi 9]

There has been no discrimination done by BSA in Knox County when it comes to Cub Scouts. Cub Scouts are not trying go to sneak a religion into the schools. And the schools know this. They are offensive, and must be fought. Your point of view I find equally offensive.

 

But I have noticed the glee you take in seeing Cub Scouting opportunities denied to children, so I don't have to pretend to understand your intentions. They are pretty well stated.

 

The Cub Scouts in Galesburg are being pushed out of the public schools. They are increasingly being embraced by Church organizations. I am one of these groups. I actually prefer to have a religious CO. But scouts are not on par with Jehovah Witness or Islam or any religious group wishing to promote their faith. Even though scouting very indirectly promotes the idea that people should be faithful- they don't say what faith that should be. Your minority position that atheists should be given an equal seat at the table is ridiculous. What about people who believe that Jews must all die. Should they be given an equal place at the table?

 

TO do my duty to God is never spelled out in Cub Scouting. It could mean following a Creed, a catechism, a daily ritual, no ritual what so ever. It could mean being good to your neighbor. Why couldnt someone who doubted the existence of God say that Duty to God means to them duty to right actions, right thinking, or ethical decisions? This is what it boils down to to most believers anyways.

 

Papp

 

[packsaddle 753]

I ________ promise to do my best

To do my duty to God and my country,

To help other people, and

To obey the Law of the Pack.

 

It looks spelled out to me. BSA even elaborated, "To do my duty to God: This phrase means to remember to thank God for good friends, good health, our well-being, our family, and all others who love and help us. Going to worship services is another way of doing our duty to God. We should respect other people's religious beliefs even if they are different from our own."

 

Merlyn's right. Although your 'local option' approach may not recognize this, BSA has established itself as a religious organization.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Pappy writes:

There has been no discrimination done by BSA in Knox County when it comes to Cub Scouts.

 

Even if true, it's irrelevant, just as my hypothetical whites-only group in an all-white town. The national BSA, which controls membership, says no atheists can be members of cub scouts anywhere. It requires that members promise to do their 'duty to god'. For all you know, the BSA's reputation as excluding atheist scouts has already dissuaded some atheist kids from even attempting to join.

 

Cub Scouts are not trying go to sneak a religion into the schools.

 

Who has said they were? Oh, a straw man argument. Gotcha.

 

Your point of view I find equally offensive.

 

And I find your point of view offensive.

 

But I have noticed the glee you take in seeing Cub Scouting opportunities denied to children, so I don't have to pretend to understand your intentions.

 

I'm actually on record as wanting to see cub scouting increased to include ALL boys.

 

But scouts are not on par with Jehovah Witness or Islam or any religious group wishing to promote their faith.

 

Mere assertion. The BSA promotes monotheism; I don't see any law that says religious organizations with vague theological requirements are treated differently from religious organizations with more specific positions on gods.

 

Your minority position that atheists should be given an equal seat at the table is ridiculous.

 

Right, just as it's ridiculous that Jews have an equal seat. Or Muslims. Or Catholics. Or Wiccans.

 

At least your contempt for religious freedom and equal religious rights before the law is clear.

 

What about people who believe that Jews must all die. Should they be given an equal place at the table?

 

Equality before the law is much preferred over what you're proposing, where any group that you personally don't like simply has their rights ignored.

 

Why couldn't someone who doubted the existence of God say that Duty to God means to them duty to right actions, right thinking, or ethical decisions?

 

They could, of course. Or they could say that gods are superstitious myths. What's wrong with thinking gods are myths?

 

This is what it boils down to to most believers anyways.

 

So why is the BSA continuing with their pyrric victory and keeping atheists out?

 

I see this happen a lot when the BSA's religious requirements are dissected in detail. Eventually, it comes down to having no coherent theological requirements in theory, and no religious practices in a large number of packs and troops. So why keep swallowing the poison pill of religious discrimination? What's the purpose? A deist who believes in a prime mover who started the universe 15 billion years ago, and who is not a personified being, and has nothing to do with human morals, and has never interacted with any part of the universe since it was started, and who requires no 'duties' to it, is practically indistinguishable from an atheist.

[evmori 11]

Well, if the kids didn't meet the membership requirements of the school chess club they could get kicked out, too! Like most organizations, the BSA has membership requirements. If you lie on you job application & are found out, you can be fired! If you lie on you BSA application and are found out, your membership can be revoked!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[packsaddle 753]

"What's wrong with thinking gods are myths?"

It depends on which ones you pick on.

Heh, heh, I got away with it in these forums a while back. You just have to pick on the right ones. There just wasn't anyone around (other than Brent) who wanted to defend Satan when I declared him to be myth.

[GernBlansten 10]

For Pack and Merlyn....

 

I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. (Stephen F. Roberts)

[Hiromi 9]

Merlyn and his merry band of God-less fellow travelers,

 

Greetings and salutations from the front lines!

 

If atheists wanted to have a atheists scout group, they would be allowed to meet at the school. But parents probably wouldn't put their child into a group of atheists scouts. But Scouting does not actively promote a specific religious point of view except that God is referred to as God, and that reverence to this God and giving thanks is important. Im sure the name God can be inter-changed with Allah in an Islamic scouting group.

 

I want the Galesburg Public schools to fight us on this one. I want to expose them for what they are. And I don't believe for one second that CUSD 205 or you Merlyn or the United Way of Greater Knox County care one lick for Cub Scouts or their families (And I dont really believe that you care for atheist kids and their rights either).. I think that you are a bunch of atheist socialists who want to destroy religion in this country, even at the expense at denying boys scouting opportunities.

 

All youll achieve is moving scouting into Church and Temple basements and perhaps adding to the already growing number of psychologically castrated soccer playing earth-day observing disrespectful video-game suckled long haired male lunk-heads.

 

If you decide to move to Scandinavia, Merlyn, Ill help pay for your ticket.

 

Pappy

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Pappy writes:

If atheists wanted to have a atheists scout group, they would be allowed to meet at the school.

 

Yep, on the same basis as cub scouts.

 

But parents probably wouldn't put their child into a group of atheists scouts.

 

That's up to the parents, of course. I've seen parents write on the internet that they won't allow their son to join the scouts because of the scouts' discrimination, for that matter.

 

But Scouting does not actively promote a specific religious point of view except that God is referred to as God, and that reverence to this God and giving thanks is important.

 

Yes, I've already said that the BSA has vague religious requirements.

 

I'm sure the name God can be inter-changed with Allah in an Islamic scouting group.

 

I wouldn't be so sure; the national BSA can be pretty stubborn when it comes to changing the wording.

 

I want the Galesburg Public schools to fight us on this one.

 

What, exactly, is the fight over? Is it over recruiting in school? Is it over meeting in school? Do other groups get the same sort of access?

 

I think that you are a bunch of atheist socialists who want to destroy religion in this country, even at the expense at denying boys scouting opportunities.

 

That's the problem when theists decide that a small fraction of the population is out to get them; you have to create bizarre conspiracies, instead of accepting the ordinary explanation that public schools do not want to further the BSA's religious discrimination.

 

All you'll achieve is moving scouting into Church and Temple basements and perhaps adding to the already growing number of psychologically castrated soccer playing earth-day observing disrespectful video-game suckled long haired male lunk-heads.

 

That's better than having public schools violating the civil rights of atheist students. The BSA can certainly have churches own & operate their discriminatory private clubs, but not public schools.

 

If you decide to move to Scandinavia, Merlyn, I'll help pay for your ticket.

 

You mean where atheists can officially join scouts, large numbers of people are atheists, and their health care and life expectancy is better than the US? Plus, I have relatives there. Tempting, but I hate moving.

[SSScout 1615]

BSA is, by definition and example, a discriminatory organization. As are many others.

The Scout Unit sponsoring organization has ultimate say as to who can belong to their unit.. This is why some Houses of Faith declare that only boys of their faith may join their Scout Unit (see corresponding thread). This is ultimately why Public Schools may not sponsor Scout Units. If the Public School said that they would allow declared athiests to belong, that would be counter to the BSA definition, hence the sponsoring PS would be in violation of BSA requirements.

However, as with any well behaved public organization, the BSA unit should be allowed the same access to rent the all-purpose room, use the atheletic field, etc. as any other. That is how nascent Baptist churches and Cub Packs and Ethical Societies and Cheer Leading Camps and Fight Cancer Societies utilize the schools around my home.

And that is how the Scout units in my area put up "Join Scouting Night" posters on the school hall walls and Troop and Crew fliers on the "take one" tables. Equal Access. 'Course, it had to be proven in the District Court, but that's the "American Way".

 

So a boy/parent can learn about the Soccer league or the breast cancer awareness walk, or the Scout Troop, or the book sale or the ice hockey clinic. Just peruse the literature rack outside the school office.

 

 

[Hiromi 9]

SSS Scout.

 

Prejudice is in the eye of the beholder. Scouting has been in the schools in Galesburg and has been allowed to be actively promoted in the schools in Galesburg for seventy plus years. So we have a little precedent on or side. Also- I would argue that sports leagues and the other things that you mention do not have the unique complementary qualities that scouting has towards education and rounding the American boy. (Until of late- when the multi-cultural agenda did what the communists of the thirties and forties couldnt do, and finally achieve a seemingly insurmountable beach-head in the American Public School system).

 

So I guess that is where it falls down- take sides of lines of prejudice and call it equal for all.

 

I for one just love to make the socialists and multi-culturists and atheists in the public schools look real bad (through accurate portrayal), so I'll keep pointing out what I believe is really behind their wall of supposed fairness. I will continue to put my faith in the American people and will continue to believe that the American Public School system and the ACLU is a paper tiger.

 

Pappy

 

[Hiromi 9]

This is a correspondace and a reflection memo on how to improve Pine Wood and other Scouter events to increase outreach and to improve over-all quality for parents, scouts, and the potential for recruitment and retention form scout events.

 

I thought this to be an interesting process.

 

 

Hi ******, I used your thoughts as an opportunity to expand on some of the concerns you expressed as well as some of the ideas I have been having about what we could do to improve the experiences for ourboys and to generate more excitement for scouting in general. I have responded to your thoughts in red letter.

 

 

 

*****Wrote: I like your ideas. I don't have a problem with ************ Hosting the event. I will keep your request on file for next year.However, concessions might be a problem. I wanted to have hot dogs & soda, ***** said that would be too messy.

 

 

 

PAPPY WROTE:We could keep the food in the cafeteria, adjacent to the gymnasium. And we could monitor the flow of traffic between the gym, the cafeteria, and the bathrooms. We could have Boy Scouts in uniform run concessions as well so Cub s and their parents can meet scouts and see them in action and learn more about the program.

 

**** WROTE: What we really want to do is focus on the derby. If we have to many activities going on I believe we would lose the scouts interests.

 

PAPPY WROTE: Im not sure we had their interest on Saturday. We had their discipline of staying put on the mat for the most part, but as far as interest, focus, and enthusiasm for the derby, that was pretty tough for those younger scouts to maintain. Maybe this was a function of the fact that there were so many scouts and so few cars being raced at a time. I know that my scouts were pretty interested in the idea of the race, and leading up to it they were growing in their excitement as well. Something about the nature of the pacing, the duration, and the down time was hard on some of them and my parents. Also, it seemed to me that we had a great opportunity while we had so many scouts together at one event to be promoting upcoming scout events, and to promote scouting in general through exhibits, demonstrations, and information to take home.

 

Questions that came to my mind were:

 

Did our parents come away from this event knowing more about cub scouting than going into to it?

 

Did the Cub Scouts go away from this event with good stories to spread to their non-scouting buddies at school?

 

Did the Cub scouts meet new kids at this event, or learn about what other scouts in the District are up to, besides their car they may have made?

 

Did the parents go away with a better impression of the Scouting program than they came in with?

 

Could this have been a good opportunity to survey parents with an easy questionnaire?

 

I could imagine tables being set up with Scouters teaching the boys how to make their own neckerchief slides from knotted parachute chord. Or Boy Scouts and more webelos being present to demonstrate what the Cubs have to look forward to at either Summer Camp or in Boy Scouting.

 

I suppose the idea here is; are we taking advantage of our opportunities to sell, promote scouting to the parents and the kids? Are we doing all we can to generate excitement about scouting, so much so, that it will translate into the boys and parents leaving with a renewed and or re-energized attitude that will get them to promote scouting to other parents and boys?

 

**** WROTE:: We could plan an Expo day some time to show off what other Packs are doing.

 

PAPPY WROTE: Yes, we absolutely could do that. And my scouts would probably like that a lot. I think I would differentiate between a scout-centric or scout-specific event and a scout outreach event aimed at recruitment. (Which I am especially interested in pursuing).

 

 

 

***** WROTE: Last year our Pack held an Academic/Sports day. We choose 4 Academic Belt loops and 2 Sport Loops. The scouts came with a sack lunch and we spent a Saturday working on these belt loops. It was a great way to introduce the belt loop/pin program. We had people who specialized in these choices come to help the scouts earn them. It was lots of fun. I would like to see this expand into having all packs participate. Sort of an indoor Day Camp.

 

PAPPY WROTE: That sounds good and it sounds like you guys are really focused on running a good Cub Scout program. You sound very confident in the Cub Scout program. I have always been more skeptical of the Cub Scout program as it is suggested by National, and have aimed at a program more focused on old fashioned scout stuff that is focused on scout games and out door stuff.

 

I have allowed my parents and the CO to give us feedback on what type of Cub Scouting program they would like to see for their boy, and over the past nearly 5 years now it has been one not so much focused on earning advancement and awards as on an after-school program that gives the boys a strong preview of Boy Scouting (which seems to be a lot more embraced and appreciated than Cub Scouting). . But this could be the particular taste and interests of my scouting community and not something shared by others.

 

****** WROTE: Opening it up to the community would be fine. As long as Rules are posted.

 

Pappy wrote: Absolutely. I think an outreach mixed scout/non-scout event would be centered on an anchor attraction, whether it be a competition of some sorts, a carnival, a camp, and etcetera. I have attached a paper at the bottom I gave to *******and ******** on ideas I had while brainstorming about possible ways to create outreach and recruitment by hosting events that would generate excitement among area boys and girls.

 

Thanks *****. And thanks again for all the work you did for the Pine Wood Derby this year. PAPPY

 

PROPOSAL FOR AN AGENCY TO FOCUS ON SUPPORTING SCOUTING IN ITS EFFORTS AT RECRUITING< RETENTION< AND OUTREACH.

 

The Aims and Goals of The Friends of Area Scouting, (An idea for an initiative to generate outreach and recruitment and enthusiasm for the scouting program in the greater Knox county region.)

 

The Friends of Area Scouting would be either an independent not-for-profit organization or a subcommittee of the now existing Sha Bo Na District Committee, and its mission is to support the growth and retention of local Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, and Venture crews in Illowa Council and specifically in the Sha Bo Na District through a variety of efforts aimed at getting the public knowledgeable and attracted to scouting as the best option for area youth. The Friends of Area Scouting may or may not be affiliated in a formal sense with the BSA or the Illowa Council or the SHa Bo Na District depending on the way we want this to run.

 

Specifically, this mission could be accomplished by developing, organizing, and helping to run Events, Demonstrations, Contests, Publicity campaigns, Community Outreach efforts, and all things that will increase both the visibility of Cub and Boy Scouting, and aide in efforts at retention and recruitment of local Packs, Troops, and Crews and the support of formation of new units through like efforts.

 

The Friends of Area Scouting can develop and carry out Presentations to area groups such a Kiwanis, Knights of Columbus, Rotary, Lions, Red Hats, Daughters of the American Revolution, etcetera.

 

Have the ability to set up a scouting demonstration with literature, with a promotional video, at outdoor and indoor events like boat shows in the mall, Historic reenactments, county fairs, foot ball games, etcetera.

 

Get help from adults who arent necessarily currently scout parents but support the cause. They can get out the word, help out at an event, and lend their talents to scouting.

 

Some ideas for the support The Friends of Area Scouting can give:

 

 

The Friends of Area Scouting -Aide in increasing the visibility of area scouting in the community through helping to develop and promote events and occasions to put scouts and scouting into the public eye.

 

The Friends of Area Scouting Help to communicate the adventure of scouting to area youth. They help to the bolster recruitment and retention of scouts by creating the impression that scouting is fun, is done by a lot of boys nationwide, is cool, and is easy to get involved with.

 

The Friends of Area Scouting Helps to promote the message to parents and area adults through organizing outreach efforts and promotional campaigns in area organizations.

 

The Friends of Area Scouting Helps to promote and organize inner-district and council-wide events to bring scouts together to participate in scouting on a large scale such as camporees and Klondike-like events.

 

The Friends of Area Scouting promote scout-like events open to all area youth (age appropriate) to promote scout-like activities like Klondikes and to get kids and their parents thinking about scouting as a choice for them.

 

The Friends of Area Scouting Helps to promote retention by offering awards, contests, and scholarships to area scouts. Through the ongoing incentive of winning recognition and prizes, it is hoped that scouts will have more encouragement and goals to remain in scouting.

 

The Friends of Area Scouting works to raise money for a scholarship fund to pay for uniforms and other basic scout needs and to maintain a uniform bank of used uniforms.

 

The Friends of Area Scouting works to support to growth of scouting both in numbers, quality of experience, and quality of the scouting message to the public.

 

The ultimate goal of The Friends of Area Scouting is to have our area scouting maintain steady growth and retention.

 

 

 

1st annual Friar Tuck Open

 

Archery and Woodsman Tournament

 

Offering Cash Prizes and trophies

 

In cooperation with the Galesburg Archery Club, and local business sponsors like Farm King and Wal-Mart.

 

 

Hatchet throw

 

Compound Bow

 

Re-curve

 

Long Bow

 

Moving Target

 

Archers Race

 

Moving Archer

 

Moving Target Moving Archer

 

Long Distance Shoot

 

 

 

Sponsored by The Friends of Area Scouting

 

 

 

1st Annual

 

Youth Iron Man Overland Competition Bicycle Running-obstacle course.

 

 

Who is the Fastest Kid in the West?

 

Do you have what it takes to run the Galesburg Gauntlet?

 

 

 

 

 

1st Annual Youth GLADIATOR

 

TOURNAMENT

 

Team and Individual

 

Do You Dare to Take The Challenge?

 

All Age Groups categorized by

 

Elementary 8-10 yrs, Junior High 11-13 yrs, and High School 14 18 yrs.

 

Lake Storey, Galesburg Illinois. July 10, 2010

 

Sponsored by the Friends of Area Scouting

Obstacle course

Mud Wrestling

Catapult Competition: Your team arms and launches a catapult at a target boat in Lake Storey.

Pugil Stick Competition

Greased Pig

Spear Throwing

Archery

Hatchet/ Tomahawk Throwing

BB and Pellet gun

Pick up the rules and registration either on line at friendsofshabona.org or at you local HyVee, Farm King, Wal-Mart, or Target Stores.

 

 

 

 

1st Annual

 

OPEN KLONDIKE!

 

Winter Sled Race

 

Who has the fastest Team?? Cash Prizes- Bonfire- Warming Stations- Food Concessions- We will be filming you!

 

Open to All Area Boys and girls Ages 10 to 18 (4th Grade through High School).- Win money for youre your sports team- club- or charity. Pick up rules and registration form at your area HyVee, Farm King, or Target Stores.

 

 

 

 

7-11 OPEN

Pine Wood Derby And Carnival

 

All area boys and Girls are eligible (age 7 to 11)

 

 

Lots of Prizes

 

Family Fun

 

Live Music

 

Barbeque and other refreshments

 

Other family Games and activities for children of all ages including BB-Guns, Archery, Horse Shoes,.

 

Sponsored by Area Friends of Scouting

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Pappy)

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Pappy, if the scouts get to advertise by putting up posters, so do Jehovah's Witnesses. Religious groups have sued when not given the same access as the Boy Scouts, and they've been winning, because once a public school creates a public forum by letting outside organizations advertise, they can't pick & choose which groups they like and don't like. So they either let them all do it, or none.

[Hiromi 9]

I don't see it that way. But it is probably my vision problem.

 

Pappy