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far from hating anyone, we want to convince people that they would actually be happier if they refrained from such activity

Ay, caramba! Now I get it! Every single thought or attraction I've had since I was 12 years old, the enormous cultural resistance, fear of rejection from friends, family, church and Scouting... that's just because no one has taken the time to convince me to stop being this "way"! Gotcha.


Nice prism you got there, buddy.


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Yeah, I understand that you don't like the fact that lots of folks don't approve of homosexuality. But you can't conclude from that observation that folks hate you. I don't hate you; I don't even know you. I don't condone your acting on your homosexual impulses. But don't feel alone-- I don't condone kids acting on their heterosexual impulses by having premarital sex; I don't condone married people acting on their impulse to have sex with someone other than their spouse.


By the same token, you might disapprove of my being of (for example)the Zoroastrian faith. The fact that you disagree with my religious beliefs should not lead me to conclude that you hate me. Even if you wanted me to give up those beliefs and practice Buddhism (or whatever), I would not take that as hateful. I would assume you want me to change because you believe Buddhism is what's best for people. And even if you disapproved of my religious ACTIONS (not just my belief) of sacrificing small animals, and wanted to prevent me, even by enacting a law, from doing that, it would not be just of me to assume that you hate me. You might be acting on the belief that it is not in the best interest of society or of individuals to allow small animal sacrifice.


Again, you are entitled to reject my rejection of homosexual activity; you are not entitled to ascribe hatred as my motivation since you cannot read my mind or my heart.


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The fact that you disagree with my religious beliefs should not lead me to conclude that you hate me... Even if you wanted me to give up those beliefs... I would not take that as hateful... I would assume you want me to change


Actually, I couldn't care less about your religious beliefs, nor would I have ANY predilection for expecting you to change them. Why in the world would you think I would want to change you?


you are not entitled to ascribe hatred as my motivation since you cannot read my mind or my heart


I don't believe you're hateful; I do believe your perspective is driven by a feeling, not an argument, and I believe you prejudge gay people based on those feelings. I also believe gay people (myself, in this case) need to do a better job of educating and relating to you as part of the human condition.


It's harder, perhaps, in this passionate issue to separate a wish from an argument, a desire from a denial.


I'm busy today, but I do want to give some real thought and a reasoned response to your post, so I promise to do so tonight.

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Going back to something onehouraweekmy wrote a few messages back, 'disapproval' by itself does not connote 'hate'.

TJ probably doesn't care much if onehouraweekmy approves of him or not. Onehouraweekmy's opinion of anything is irrelevant to TJ's life except that it is associated with an exclusionary policy that is aimed specifically at TJ. Then, if TJ considers that policy to be hateful, that's TJ's prerogative.


Onehouraweekmy and likeminded folks are in control of the policy. They support and maintain the exclusionary policy. But they can't control both the exclucionary policy AND the responses of persons who they excluded. This should be obvious.


What I don't get is why do they whine so much about the opinion of someone they have specifically excluded? Seems to me that if they do exclude someone, they shouldn't mess their pants in shock when the excluded person reacts in a predictable manner. Those in control, well, they're in control. They should celebrate their primacy in excluding people for whatever reason. They should take the resulting criticisms proudly, as tokens of their righteousness, and proclaim these things openly for all to see. Advertise BSA as the anti-gay, anti-atheist religious club that it has won the right to legally be. OK, don't want to do that? Then just put these exclusionary things explicitly on the applications so that EVERY applicant will understand clearly.

I won't be holding MY breath while I wait for THAT to happen though.

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Excuse the religious belief comparison. I was not trying to suggest you would want to change me, I was clumsily trying to point out that simply believing someone is in error and trying to persuade them to change their belief and conduct is not "hateful." It may in fact be the most unselfish form of love to wish to bring someone out of a way of life that one considers to be self-destructive.


Nevertheless, my position is not predicated upon emotion, since I have no emotional reaction to homosexuality at all, except for maybe sadness that some people want to engage in activity that is in my view contrary to human nature and certainly against the proscriptions of Jewish and Christian moral teaching.


I prejudge no one. A person with an inclination to homosexual activity can choose to control that inclination and become a great saint and a fine human being. A person who struggles with such an inclination and fails from time to time to control it can still be a fine person. No one is immune from failing to live up to what humanity is supposed to achieve and to what God expects.


In just the same way, I condemn no one since I am not without fault. Condemnation and judgment are for another place and time; my only point is that to argue that homosexual practice is wrong and to be discouraged is not to condone hate. Rather, failure to act to preserve the moral and social fabric that has given us 6,000 years of Jewish/Christian/Western civilization would itself be a form of self-hatred and neglect.


There are numerous reasons why our civilization has never sanctioned open homosexual activity. Unreflexive hate of some sort is not one of those reasons, even if some people wrongly use the immorality of homosexuality as an excuse to be hateful to individual persons.


A happy Thanksgiving to all reading this. Despite our differences, we can still celebrate and truly give thanks that we live in the freest and most prosperous nation in history.


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I'll be home and able to write a thoughtful (hopefully) statement in a few hours... Until then, just a quick post... your religious analogy was not inappropriate... I have no desire to change what you believe, and you should similarly have no desire to change what I believe (which is that I'm going to be just fine with God).


But the evangelical conservative movement just can't seem to NOT focus on me... A little insight into the pathologies of the far-right. Here are Conservapedia's most viewed pages http://www.conservapedia.com/Special:Statistics


Most viewed pages



1. Main Page [1,894,429]

2. Homosexuality [1,475,437]

3. Homosexuality and Hepatitis [515,993]

4. Homosexuality and Promiscuity [416,375]

5. Homosexuality and Parasites [387,265]

6. Homosexuality and Gonorrhea [327,795]

7. Homosexuality and Domestic Violence [319,073]

8. Gay Bowel Syndrome [305,261]

9. Homosexuality and Syphilis [261,781]

10. Homosexuality and Mental Health [243,293]


Obsess much? :-)


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