Philly raises scouts rent $199,999/year

[Trevorum 24]

Brent buddy, I know you're just trying to yank my chain... heh, heh. All in good fun. However I honestly don't know if you are serious about that monkey part. (You do know the answer, right?)

[tjhammer 10]

The rules don't apply to me because I'm special.

 

Deep breath... always fun when someone new like Gold Winger joins the Forum, huh? (BTW, does his response assuage any suspicions from a few pages back about his true identity, and whether Gold Winger's a recurrent troll? I'm not sure, really.)

 

I'm not breaking any "rules". I'm compliant with the BSA's policy, which amounts to "don't ask/don't tell".

 

I'll grant you that participation doesn't feel very honorable to me sometimes, but not because I'm breaking a rule... implicitly endorsing a policy that's wrong causes real damage to both the organization that I love, and real people, does make me feel dishonorable. But I'm not much more dishonorable in that respect than than about half the participants on this Forum who have suggested they also think the policy is wrong. And since I know it's easier to affect change from within (for now), I've decided to live with that hypocrisy a bit longer.

 

What about homosexual youth? Should they be allowed to tent together?

 

Well, we did when I was a kid (which was in the 80's, just as the BSA was concocting their policy to explicitly label avowed homosexuals "incapable of being the best kind of citizen" and unworthy of leadership. I knew about a dozen gay kids as I was a kid growing up in Scouting... a couple that I knew at the time, others didn't come out until years later. (I had a lot of involvement in OA and national events, so I knew a lot of people... no doubt I knew many more, who concealed it and I've since lost track of over the years.)

 

What about homosexual youth?

 

Yeah, what about those youth? I'm pretty lucky that Scouting instilled a huge amount of self-confidence and self-worth in me, and that I didn't worry much about the nonsense over gay people in the program... that's not to say I didn't hugely struggle with coming to grips with my sexual identity, and recognizing that it wasn't anything I could change.

 

But I had it much easier than some of the kids I knew, who quietly suffered... imagine hearing you're the ONE KIND of person that's explicitly incapable of being "good" and worthwhile as a participant or role model.

 

The struggle (and in no small part the condemnation of Scouting) lead one of those young boys to foolishly attempt suicide... it wasn't until after the attempt that I learned he was gay. The next year he went on to be one of the best OA officers I've ever encountered, so he bounced back. ;-)

 

Are you still involved?

 

Yes, along with thousands of other gay men and boys. Watch out, there's probably been one of us in your troop. If there is, I pray he's developed enough self-worth through Scouting to ignore your prejudice.

 

 

[BrentAllen 10]

Trev,

Sure - because God likes monkeys. He didn't want them all to evolve into humans and disappear. Also, in case man evolved too far and decided he was better than God, or that God didn't matter anymore, God could remove man from the face of the earth and start over again with the remaining monkeys. I guess athiests would have a different answer.

(jingle, jingle)

[Gold Winger 9]

tj,

 

Don't ask, don't tell just means that we aren't going to hunt you down. However, you admit here that you're a homosexual. Unless you are hiding, I'm sure that others know.

 

You still didn't address my quesitons about tenting arangements and youth protection. The rules set up for heterosexual situations cannot be applied to homosexual situations.

 

I don't have a troop but since there are no single fathers or mothers involved with my son's troop, if any are homosexuals they are pretty deep in the closet.

 

I don't care if you are a homosexual. The policy is neither right nor wrong, it is just the policy and we need to abide by it.

 

However your answer still comes down to "i dont follow the policy because I'm special."

 

"whether Gold Winger's a recurrent troll?"

 

Gotta love the internet. Its like dealing with liberals, with them if you don't agree with them you're an idiot. On the internet, if you disagree you're a troll.

 

 

[Lisabob 13]

"I don't care if you are a homosexual. The policy is neither right nor wrong, it is just the policy and we need to abide by it."

 

 

Just for clarification of your viewpoint, I'm curious to know *why* you believe we need to abide by this policy, if it is not a matter of right and wrong?

[Gold Winger 9]

Because it is the policy and when we signed up we agreed to abide by BSA's rules.

 

 

[eolesen 10]

"Because it is the policy and when we signed up we agreed to abide by BSA's rules."

 

That sums it up for me... We don't get to pick and choose which policies are to be enforced and which ones aren't.

 

I might not agree with every policy or law that I encounter in Scouting, my company, my church, or my country. There's a lot I don't agree with, and I will gladly voice my opposition when asked or in a discussion, but that still doesn't absolve me from having to adhering to such policy/law.

 

I don't like the idea of an income tax. But I still pay them...

 

I'm not a fan of 65mph speed limits in the middle of nowhere. But I do follow them, and when I don't, I expect to pay the consequences for my actions...

 

 

Now.... to go back four or five pages....

 

I made the observation that Wicca and Unitarians were non-theist.

 

As pointed out by others, that's an error on my part. I intended to write non-monotheist, and that got overlooked. I'd correct it, but the problem with apostrophes and editing are still persisting and I don't want to reword the entire post again.

 

 

It's pretty clear that this topic has been beaten to death and then some. I don't think it has made anyone change their mind though, so perhaps the time has come to just let it wind down since it isn't winding down on its own........

[packsaddle 753]

Trevorum, I had a really clever retort for that "thinking trilobite" comment and then I read this, "Bill's marriage had adapted and evolved - his wedding vows were just relics of the past. I'm sure Trev and pack have a similar view of their marriage vows, right guys? Adapt and evolve! I'm sure their wives will agree with their views."

Now I'm wondering if a 'thinking trilobite' might be possible.

 

Brent, considering that you really don't know much about me or Trevorum or our wives, much less our marriages, if you are this "sure" about me and Trev and our wives' views, I have to say it is cause for question when you say you are "sure" about anything else.

Our wedding (more than 30 years ago now) was a traditional New York Italian extravaganza almost like it was right out of "The Godfather". A real blast with abundant food, music, dancing, and lots to drink. It nearly killed me. "Obey" was also absent from our vows, which we also wrote ourselves. The priest didn't seem to mind.

 

As for the monkey thing: Trev took the bait - you go ahead and play him, but please throw him back so we can play again another day.

 

GoldWinger, a while back another poster thought he had 'outed' me during an exchange similar to the one you're having with TJ. My point back then was we signed the application individually and we only answer individually to ourselves if BSA accepts it. We did NOT take on the responsibility to be enforcers for BSA, sleuthing out other members who may be in violation in our opinion. That responsibility belongs to BSA if they so choose. So far they haven't.

TJ's comment about a "troll" is in regard to one person who entered the forums several times in succession under different aliases, and who (as far as I know) is the only person to have been excluded from it...on each successive occasion. Some of us, like TJ, were sensitized to the deception. I have not sensed anything similar, however. IMHO.

 

Eolesen, 14 pages or so has often been the max for these threads in the past. I think this might have something to do with bandwidth, the time it takes to load the entire thread for a reply...problematic for members with slow connections. I can't imagine what it would be like with a modem.

[Gold Winger 9]

" My point back then was we signed the application individually and we only answer individually to ourselves if BSA accepts it."

 

I don't understand your point. Whether you have an obligation to report those who don't follow the rules isn't the issue. The quesiton is wheather you need to follow the rules once you agree to follow them.

 

 

[Trevorum 24]

Thinking trilobites and Italian weddings. These threads do weave and wander ... Our wedding was on horseback in Malibu, strangely foreshadowing our life here in Texas. We literally rode off into the sunset (but then we had to circle back for the reception). I've always wanted to get invited to an Italian wedding. Guess I don't have the right sort of friends.

[tjhammer 10]

Have you signed a membership form that I haven't signed? One that asked you to declare to BSA Inc. whether you were a homosexual or not?

 

We can debate ad nauseum what the BSA policy means by "avowed homosexual"... I'll go ahead and concede in advance that it's just silly word games... but it's incumbent upon the BSA to define what that means (which they've done inconsistently for years, but always as the sole arbiter, which right they one as a private organization).

 

Said another way... I promise you that at all levels of Scouting, BSA Inc. knows there are gays involved and takes a case by case stance on whether to exclude them. I've been around national committees that included folks who lived in committed same sex relationships and BSA Inc chose to ignore it as irrelevant.

 

That's certainly the case in many, many local units (and even many Councils, including nearly all the major metro Councils who explicitly refuse to enforce the policy while giving lip service to adhering to it), where individuals are not PREjudged, but judged as individuals, to determine whether they are good role models.

 

The hypocrisy of the national policy is that it's poorly defined and inconsistently enforced... which leaves in the lurch a lot of really good kids who are secretly coming to grips with their sexual identity. It also leaves the Scouting in a lurch with public opinion, especially among young parents that are considering putting their kids into the program.

 

Of course, BSA Inc. is in a precarious situation... they can't really explicitly define the policy or more aggressively enforce it for fear of expanding real prejudice. They have just enough vagueness in the "wink, wink" policy to placate the LDS church (which were principally, though not exclusively, behind the National Relationships Committee's crafting of the policy declaration in the first place).

 

 

(Re: tents sharing, etc... if you recognize that thousands of gay kids already exist in the program, you'll know planning for how to deal with gay kids joining is a red herring.)

 

[Gold Winger 9]

"Have you signed a membership form that I haven't signed? One that asked you to declare to BSA Inc. whether you were a homosexual or not?"

 

What does that have to do with the price of tea in Russia?

 

You are a homosexual and know it. You also know that being a homosexual puts you in violation of BSA's policies but yet you insist of remaining a member. Why? Because you consider yourself to be special. We're not talking about the "thousands" of homosexuals that you claim are involved. We're talking about you.

 

So do you tell the Scouts to only obey the rules that they agree with? Why not? You only follow the rules that you agree with.

 

I've noticed that you keep dodging my question by ranting about the number of homosexuals in Scouting.

 

I've been involved with Scouting for over ten years, not as many as your 28 but more than a few. I can't say that I've ever met a homosexual Scouter. If there were any they were hiding it pretty well with the trappings of heterosexuality like a wife and kids.

[tjhammer 10]

What does that have to do with...

 

Uh, everything. My membership in the organization was not contingent upon a poorly defined and inconsistent policy, which up until about a year ago you had to interpret from scattered comments in random places. BSA finally got around to actually positing a policy on a web site (not on a membership application, or in any training literature, mind you), but leaves it up to your imagination to define what it means to be an "avowed homosexual".

 

You clearly think it means one thing, I think it means another, and we'll likely never hear from BSA an explicit definition of what they intend. In the mean time, I've already conceded that we're quiveling over words, but it's a game that BSA is playing as equally as I am.

 

I can interpret by the defacto "don't ask/don't tell" approach they've taken, and inconsistent enforcement of the policy, that they must not be talking about me. If BSA Inc. ever does come around to instructing me personally to leave, I'll have no choice but to do so. (BTW, you wouldn't have much choice if they decided to boot you because they don't like motorcycle riders as a class, and you explicitly... and that's their privilege.)

 

I don't go around "avowing" (whatever that means) my homosexuality in Scouting. I don't expect you "avow" your heterosexuality in Scouting (by the same arbitrary definition of the word).

 

 

As for why you don't recognize any gay people in Scouting and I do, I guess it's that mystical gaydar thing. ;-) And the fact that most of the gay people I've met along the way was back when I was younger, and I was probably much more sensitive to and approachable on the subject. As a side note, I'd be willing to bet your high school age kids know far more gay people than you ever have in your lifetime... maybe we're evolving. ;-)

[BrentAllen 10]

Trev,

Bad news!

"Report: Primates in Danger of Extinction"

 

BANGKOK, Thailand (AP) - Almost a third of all apes, monkeys and other primates are in danger of extinction because of rampant habitat destruction, the commercial sale of their meat and the trade in illegal wildlife, a report released Friday said...

 

At least it isn't global warming causing their decline. Man, I'm glad my ancestors evolved!

[Gold Winger 9]

" My membership in the organization was not contingent. . ."

 

Sure it was. I quote from the adult application .. .

 

"I agree to comply with the Charter, Bylaws and the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America."

 

You are awoved because you tell everyone here that you are a homosexual. So you are inviolation of the argreement that you signed. Your membership is fradulent. You try to dance around the fact but you, not BSA, is the hypocrite.

 

I'll avow my heterosexuality any time and anyplace. In fact, I probably have done it around a campfire when the Scouts are talking about hot babes. "Hey, Gold winger! Who do you think is hot?" The answer has been Jessica Alba, Lynda Carter, and Cheryl Ladd but never Harrison Ford or Orlando Bloom.

 

As for your claim that my kids know more homosexuals than I have, don't know about that. I studied dance and worked in the theater as a young man. I've known quite a few homosexuals.