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I certainly did not want to sound like I was ripping on your SM. As you correctly point out alot of leaders do it that way. The debate that is wgaed here is that majority or plurality does not always make it right. You need to realize that part of the purpose of this board is to discuss that very point and to offer differing views as to what makes a good program.

 

Bob White

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chucklehead (by the way, I love the name! It's what I call myself alot!):

 

I am sorry for using some of the phrases I did. I am not going to say I didn't mean them, because at the time I wrote them, I meant them. But after reading them in print, I realize they just were not appropriate for this conversation. Please accept my apology.

 

How long has your Troop run itself like this? Have you seen any drawbacks to it? Although I don't think our Troop would want to revert back to how we were, I'd be interesting to see any comparisons between your sucessful Troop and ours that couldn't get things right. I wonder if we had just given the Scoutmaster more time to implement things, if we could have gotten as good as we think we are.

 

I think if I read Bob White's comment correctly, he isn't ripping on your SM. Bob has shown a tremendous tolerance for people who are on this forum that disagree with him, so I am certain he has the same respect for your Scoutmaster. Please believe me, no one here feels you or your Scoutmaster are bad people.

 

My dad (today is the one year aniversary of the day he died) used to always say to me whenever I wanted to argue with conventional wisdom: "Mark, it's probably not very likely that the whole world is wrong and you're right". I can tell you this: Although once in a great while I proved that I was the lone righteous voice, it wasn't too darn often. As glad as I am that I stuck to my principles the two or three times I was right, they were generally small victories. If I had listened to the wisdom and experience of others who had been there before me, I would have saved myself a lot of work, heartache, and aggrevation.

 

Take the oppurtunity to answer some of the questions presented here. Even if you don't answer us, answer them with your "inner circle" in the Troop. If you answer honestly, and with an open mind, and can still say you know you are right, stick to your priciples. But please don't make the mistake of dismissing the ideas without honest consideration. Although I am dead certain you are correct that there are plenty of other Troops using your method, I'd be willing to bet an in depth study would show that a far greater percentage of successful Troops use the Boy Scout Method, as descibed by those who have "been there, done that". I can't prove it to you, so I won't be suprised if you reject it. But I would bet I am right.

 

I'll try one more analogy: Ice cream is great, wouldn't you say? I like ice cream all by it self, I think it is terrific. But Ice cream with syrup and whipped cream and nuts and a cherry are even better, most people think. Not everyone, but most. Can you get enjoyment from plain old ice cream? You bet! But it's so much better with the extras, isn't it?

 

Same with Scouts. Your Troop accomplishes the task of Scouting (as you see it). But think how much better it might be with the syrup (patrols), the whipped cream (PLC), the planning meeting (nuts) and real control in the hands of the Scouts, not the Scoutmaster (cherry). Wise people here are trying to make the condiments sound appealing to you. Please don't reject them without tasting them first!

 

Again, good luck to you.

 

Mark

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How long has your Troop run itself like this?

 

Our troop has been run like this for at least 25 years, not sure how it was run before because the lastets person we have that we can find that was a member of our troop became an Eagle in 1957 and thigns wer runt he same way.

 

Have you seen any drawbacks to it?

 

Honestly, no I havent seen any evident drawbacks to it, from the current status of our troop and the past 6 years I've been a member its all worked well.

 

 

I hope you now see my point of view........

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Chucklehead,

 

How do you reconcile not using the patrol method versus the fact that when Lord Baden-Powell started Boy Scouts he based it on the Patrol method?

 

And if you think that the longer an insitution has done something a certain way the more it proves its validity, how do you reconcile Boy Scouts 90 years of the Patrol Method versus your troops 25 years of doing it your way?

 

Interesting discussion eh? We were talking about older scouts who disappear and looks like we got an older scout who has no problem being a visible scout!

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Chucklehead,

 

No I don't see your point of view, because I am not with your troop every day. All I have to base my comments on is the Troop my sons are in, and what I have been taught are the Boy Scout Methods.

 

Have you ever had any conversation about trying some of these other ideas? I'n not saying a drastic change, but just one idea?

 

If you were to try one, which would it be? I'm guessing a natural would be patrol camping. Is there any chance that if you suggested to your troop that each group of guys that generally hang together find its own site, away from everyone else, and pitch their tents together, it would work? What do you think the results, pro and con, would be?

 

Do you guys get the same kind of attitude we see when we put significantly different age guys together (say 12 and 17)? We always seemed to get "Why do I have to spend time with the little kids?", and "Why do the older guys do stuff that we can't do?".

 

During your troop meetings, or an event, when someone decides that the troop should work on a rank requirement (let's say lashing), does everyone, even the guys who have done it 3, 4 ,7 times have to do it again? If not what do they do instead?

 

During campouts, when you're by the campfire, and you older guys start turning the conversation to girls (don't try to fool us, we know!), do you wish the younger guys would just go away? And when you were younger, did you wish the older guys would stop talking about girls and start talking a Pokemon, or whatever was the cool thing for 11 and 12 year olds to be doing at the time?

 

When you have done your high venture outings (sounds like you had fun), were they appropriate for all 60 guys? If not, what did the other guys do?

 

If you answer the way I think most Troops would, I'd guess that a solution to some of the difficulties that arose during those times would be the Patrol Method. And, as you older guys got to the age you're at now (I'm guessing 16 or 17), the freedom of doing things away from younger guys, and away from adults gets really attractive (now don't try to pretend you like us meddling in your conversations and activities. We know that we're pretty cool, but we're also smart enough to know you guys like your space).

 

Which small idea from the Patrol Method would you try? I'm betting it might be camping with your tightest buddies.

 

Mark

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Chucklehead,

 

In trying to be fair, I visited your website as requested. It is very impressive! I would love to have short meeting minutes posted on our website, as it always seems our adults are too busy with other stuff to always hear what the guys planned and did.

 

Is there a glitch in your site? You mentioned you have 52 Scouts in one of your ealiest posts, and I think later you said 60. the Patrol rosters you show add up to 38 I think I counted, and that includes the Venture Patrol. You might want to check it out and see if you are missing a Patrol or two.

 

Also, if you have a venture patrol, that is active on its own, you actually do use a bit of The Methods of Boy Scouting. It's a nice start. Does it work to keep these guys interested by providing something age appropriate for them to do?

 

Lastly, my last post guessed your age at 16 to 17. I'm now guessing your are 17 or 18, in that I figured 1985 was your troop number, but I see I am wrong. so now I'm guessing it is your year of birst, right?

 

Mark

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Ultimately, we're all prisoners of our own experiences. Our outlooks are framed by what we see around us. Chucklehead is obviously satisfied with the program his unit provides, or he'd vote with his feet.

 

But, as they say, "...You don't know what you don't know...". And, a corollary to that, "...You can't appreciate what you haven't experienced...". Case in point: when I was a Scout, our troop cabin camped exclusively, with the entire troop in large, rustic, log cabins at a wonderful Scout reservation nearby....stone hearth fireplaces, bunk beds, full kitchens, wraparound porches, etc., etc. I never tent-camped as a youth, didn't have that experience, and never knew what I missed until my son became a Scout. Our troop tent-camps...entirely different human dynamics and opportunities; better, too, looking back on my experience then compared with his now. But, at the time, I would have done exactly what Chucklehead's doing now -- defended our practice from a "ain't broke, don't fix it" standpoint, it being familiar and comfortable to me.

 

Could any given unit offer a better program, or a more compliant one, than it does today? Sure. Could Chucklehead's? Sure. But, inertia is a very difficult thing to overcome, and there's decades of it in place here. All the reasoned arguments and B-P quotes are not going to overcome that inertia. I've got the aims & methods printed on the back of my SM business card (seriously), and believe in every one of them. But, in the final analysis, what's most important here? Whether or not the patrols in Chucklehead's troop qualify as National Honor Patrols, or if the Scouts who've graduated from the Troop and are now sprinkled throughout the community are adults of high character?

 

If it's the latter, we can stipulate they're not following the book and tell the National Scouting Museum to stop working on the bust of Chucklehead's SM for display in the lobby. If it's the former, then we'd better alert the National Council Unit Commissioner Strike Team to pack their bags, kiss their wives, and deploy in there to effect a regime change on that troop...

 

KS

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Well,

I would like to answer every question but I have better things to do.........

 

SO, I'm going to summarize my statements again....................

 

I respect your opinions and views however, I disagree with many if not most of them. Just because we do things differently then your troop(s) doesnt mean our troop is any less standing in society then yours, this is the way we do it, if you dont like it thats too Darn bad. It also works in the opposite way, if I, which I dont, like your method or the "patrol method" thats too darn bad also. Yuo arent goin to change our ways and I'm not going to change yours..........There is one goal that all scouts try to achieve EAGLE. No matter how the group is run, all scouts that go for Eagle have topass the same Board of Review.

 

I'm not sure why this was relevant in a Scouting Message Board but, yes I'm 17 years old......................

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Pardon me, didn't know you had to be one of the first ten posters on a thread in order to opine.

 

Whether you continue to engage or not is entirely up to you. Where I was yesterday, or what I was doing, is not relevant to the discussion.

 

Here's a free lesson for you, take it or leave it: if you lay your life (or some part of it) out for public scrutiny, consumption, and comment, you are giving your implied consent for the people you lay it out to, to comment on it -- and as you've found out, they may not agree with you.

 

Grow a thicker skin, and move on...it's not worth getting worked up over.

 

KS

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