Catholic Scouts shun lawmakers over ethics

[Hunt 11]

It seems to me that the discomfort some of us feel about this stems from the fact that, as far as I know, the Catholic Church has not historically closely integrated the Scouting program with its own youth programs. Thus, for example, Scouting units sponsored by Catholic Churches are not limited to Catholic boys. If they were, then I don't think this decision would be surprising, and it wouldn't be news. (This should perhaps also be a cautionary note for those who complain that they can't get their COR more involved in the unit.)

I should also add that even if one supports "local option" on controversial issues, that doesn't mean that any decision made by a chartering organization is immune from question or criticism--but it does make the question more complicated.

[John-in-KC 311]

Hunt,

 

Gotta agree the CP is not beneath question or criticism, and needs to be willing to deal with it.

 

That said, we also do not have a dog in this fight, so to me it pushes the envelope towards wasting my breath. There are bigger issues to worry about.

[SWScouter 34]

A lot of people don't seem to understand what marriage is in the Catholic church. If they did, then the reason why there can be no divorce of a Catholic marriage is really quite simple and obvious. In the Catholic faith, marriage is divine, a sacrament bestowed by God uniting a man and a woman. Now God is infallible and would only bestow the sacrament of marriage on a man and a woman meant to be together. And so, if a man and woman were really married in the Catholic church, i.e., God united them, then they would never need to be divorced. On the other hand if a man and women went through the wedding ceremony in a church but God never actually married them, then there is no marriage to divorce, only a human error to correct by anulling the marriage.

 

So you see, divorce cannot occur in the Catholic faith because the marriage never really occurred to begin with. The anullment is just paper work clearing up human error.

 

It may be helpful to separate the civil legalities of marriage and divorce from those of the Catholic church. Being married in the eyes of the Catholic church (God) and the eyes of our government are really two different things.

 

SWScouter

[GernBlansten 10]

So SWScouter,

I was married by a retired Lutheran minister in an outdoor ceremony in a public park.

In the eyes of my Catholic friends and fellow scouters, am I living in sin? Are my children bastards?

 

[BadenP 93]

SW Scouter

You really do not understand what the Marriage Tribunal is about do you? They do not just deal with Catholic marriages they hold hearings on any marriage performed in most Protestant denominations as well. Lately they even have adjudicated a civil marriage of a very good friend of mine. For my masters of ministry degree I received from Notre Dame University I have taken classes in Canon Law. The official church policy is that any marriage performed by an ordained minister, rabbi, priest, or even an iman is considered a sacramental marriage and the Catholic tribunal under canon law has the authority to investigate and annul any such marriage. In my opinion and those of many other clergy collegues from various denominations puts the Catholic church on a very slippery slope of credibility. Another case of interferring where they do not belong just like this priest who wants to dictate who can speak or participate in an Eagle Court of Honor.

 

By the way SW I am interested in your answer to Gern's question, especially since your explanation of Catholic marriage is not at all accurate. As an ordained Christian minister and former Catholic I want to see you defend your very prejudicial post with some accurate statements.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[SSScout 1615]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Peace, now my brothers and sisters.

God's will can be discerned by any with the ears willing to listen. (ask St. Francis.). Whether Catholic, Hutterite, Wiccan, or Zoroastrian, ultimately sin is not to be JUDGED by you or me ( I don't think).

 

Religion, is, after all, a human invention. Vote with your feet if the local provider of dogma does not find agreement in your heart of hearts. There seem to be, if I believe what I see in the papers, many other mechanisms of God connection. The desire to reconnect with God is pervasive in humankind. More want it than not, it's the admission of the desire that seems most difficult. (Merlyn?) I think?.

 

The "CO" does hold the right to determine HOW it will provide the franchise given by National BSA. And, conversely, National BSA can revoke that franchise (charter) if it finds the program is being mis-presented (and when was the last time THAT happened?)

 

Martin Luther, where are you now when we really need you?

 

YiS........

[Hunt 11]

I think it's possible to understand the problem with this case without going into too much theology. Here, there was a troop sponsored for some lengthy period by a Catholic Church, but with a substantial number of non-Catholic scouts in it. It had a practice of inviting local elected officials to participate in Eagle ceremonies. A new priest takes over the church, bans the participation by the ideologically unsound politicians, and cans the CC when he complains. While it may well have been within the priest's right to do this, in my opinion it was not a wise thing to do unless there were instructions from above for all parishes to take this position. It created bad PR for the church, alienated leaders who were doing their best to help boys, and alienated local elected officials. You have to wonder whether it could have been handled a little better.

[scoutingagain 20]

I have to agree with Hunt. This probably could have been handled a little better, but that Priest as the IH of the CO that sponsors a Troop is fully within his authority to determine how that unit operates as a partner with the BSA. Just as there are COs that do not allow female adult leaders or require that all members of the unit they sponsor be members of a specific faith.

 

I have no problem with this. It allows members and parents to find a unit that best fits their needs for a scouting program. I just wish the welcoming congregation of the Methodist Church that sponsors our unit had the same latitude to welcome all into scouting that this Priest has to restrict who will participate in certain scout functions at his institution.

 

SA

 

[SSScout 1615]

Scoutingagain: Maybe I didn't understand correctly. Are you saying the Methodist Church your Troop is sponsored by does NOT allow certain types of people to join? This thread is about a restrictive policy of a CO,yes?

Our CO, again, a Methodist Church, has never, to my knowledge, restricted our membership or activities or who we can invite to what activity. Our Troop Chaplains Aide is from a Jewish family. We have families of at least 4 different flavors of faith in the Troop,including members of the church.

Our only problem was when the new minister came in and 6 months later expressed surprise (at Scout Sunday) that the church had Scout units. No one had told her previously! An educational moment....

[scoutingagain 20]

The only restrictions on membership in the unit our Methodist Church sponsors are those imposed by BSA policies. My appologies for terminology, but as "Reconciling Methodist Congregation" (upon further research, "Welcoming" is apparently the term used by Universal Unitarian Congregations) there are potentially members of the Church who are not allowed to join the BSA unit sponsored by their institution based on BSA membership requirements, not any imposed by the CO.

 

SA

[packsaddle 753]

I admit...although I was raised Presbyterian and I tried very hard to be a Presbyterian, I didn't 'get' it. And now I realize that I also don't 'get' most of the other hokus pokus stuff that designates one flavor of religion from another. But that's not the topic here. The topic is really about a political statement by a priest based on his strong feelings about morality.

I agree with Hunt in that it's difficult to understand how the action taken by the priest has provided net benefit to the program or to the boys. Perhaps someone can explain.

 

Edited part: I need to add, again, that if THIS is the price of local option, I'll take local option. In time, the marketplace will reshuffle the boys to troops with whom the parents are happier...if they disagree with the priest. The market will make all the needed adjustments.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[SWScouter 34]

Gern, my understanding is that the Catholic church recognizes marriages performed outside the church and if your marriage is truly God given, then no, you are not living in sin, and your children are not bastards.

 

That may sound judgemental but it is not meant to. Again that is my simple understanding of what marriage means as a Catholic.

 

BadenP, I don't claim to be an expert, or even very familiar with canon law. I have read much of the Catechism of the Catholic faith and I have read much on the sacraments of the Catholic faith, marriage as you know, being one of them. Please point out what is incorrect in what I stated. Per the Catholic church, is not God infallible and is not marriage a permanent union given by God and hence divorce is a contradiction?

 

SWScouter

[scoutingagain 20]

" if THIS is the price of local option, I'll take local option."

 

Pack, this price is already paid. Individual COs have the option to restrict membership and control the activities of the units they sponsor if they choose to do so. There are COs that sponsor units that restrict membership by gender and/or by religion. Unfortunately other COs do not have the option you refer to.

 

 

SA

[BadenP 93]

SW Your last post to Gern contradicts your previous one, and that is the first of many errors. If you wish to continue please PM me as this discussion is going far afield from the topic at hand. Thank you.

[ASM915 90]

So the Padre is throwing his weight around on the subject of stem cell research. If you believe in Stem Cell Research, your excommunicated.

Did Monsignor Palmer clarify whether he is talking about all STR, or did he differentiate between FSC research and Adult SC research, which are two different beasts when it comes to moral grounds and research funding? As posted in a thread about this subject in another forum, the Church doesn't hold the ASC research in the same contempt that it does FSC research.

 

As for the CO, which is the Doicese, not the specific Parish, what say the Bishop on the Priests decisions, YEA or NAY?