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Eamonn says: I feel very strongly that Scouting isn't just for the "Good little Boys and Girls".




Ed, no your last post didn't really answer my question about HOW you would ascertain those facts, but I'm done pushing it. I've noticed that, having stopped in to start this little tempest, our friend owl has taken off again. I begin to wonder if maybe that was his intent? And since we're talking about purely hypothetical situations which are, at least, exceedingly rare (how many of us have dealt with Eagle candidates who are reputed to be fathers...), I'm moving on to other threads.

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The discussion has run it's course.


A couple of final thoughts from me and then maybe everyone can have a last whack at the burro full of candy hanging on a string.


What culture can possibly think it is ok to for a 17 year old boy and girl to make a child without being married?


The minute they invented WIC and all the other programs we all pay for it became MY business. Analogous(sp?) to all the war protesters holding up signs "Not in my name".


Wife and I waited until we thought we had enough money to support a child.

Every week Some Governmental entity TAKES money I would earmark for MY children and (in concert with others, YOU, and YOU in the back row, and all you in between) WE all give it to people who weren't careful with the "loaded weapons" they were using and now THEY are not responsible for their actions. In the depression days if you were on public assistance they would publish your name in the paper. Some thought it was a great day when they got their name off the list.


What the heck, it's public money, don't good gov't advocates want accountability?


I maintain that:

This subject is a national problem. This leads to many other national problems because kids start off in a place that is sometimes already starting off on the wrong foot from day one.


No matter who will "Columbo" the answer it is in violation of some of the parts of the Scout law and oath.



As far as finding out or proof. We don't need DNA, PACK wants details, LISA wants to tell the SE,DE and COR, Trev made fun of the most immoral POTUS we've had in a while. I never asked how we would administer it because it's never going to happen. I asked because whatever we as a nation are doing now, it simply isn't working.


If you think it's wrong but wouldn't want to do anything about it are you apathetic? It's not wrong enough? Do you run from being judgemental? I maintain that when people were a little more judgemental we had a little more morals as a people.


As far as administering it, am I stupid enough to believe that if you suspected it you could simply ask the boy in the presence of his parent? Some of the "guilty" would say yes.


"But than we'd only catch the honest people!" Sometimes honesty brings with it a price to pay. Honest people already know that.


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"What culture can possibly think it is ok to for a 17 year old boy and girl to make a child without being married?"


After thinking this over, I would agree to your proposed rule, as long as we first ask all adult Scouters if any of them have ever had sexual relations outside of marriage, and expel all the ones who admit to having done so. Then those who are left can begin casting stones at the boys.

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Sorry I couldn't give you a better answer Lisabob. But the answer depends on how much you already know & what your sources of information are. It also depends on your morals & ethics.


Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

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Hi there owl, glad to see you are back. I'll be happy to retract my conjecture that you had started this thread for kicks and giggles.


I don't see anybody here disagreeing with your basic premise that teenagers who aren't ready for commitment and responsibility are probably going to face difficulty being parents. Not to say that it could never happen, but the basic problem itself is fairly uncontroversial. The question is, what to do about it, and there we differ.


I still disagree with your proposal. If the problem you wish to address is unplanned/teen/unmarried parenthood in our society as a whole, I have doubts about the effectiveness of any proposed boy scouts policy on the larger issue. In particular I have doubts that the policy you proposed could ever be workable even within boy scouts. I'm perfectly willing to agree to disagree on the particulars though.


It is a little to easy though, as well as wrong, to suggest that people who don't agree with your proposal are somehow unwilling to address larger societal issues. That's the sort of "with us or against us" garbage that political pundits seeking ratings or selling books and politicians seeking re-election spew and it isn't worth much of anything in terms of actually dealing with real issues in all their complexity.


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I'm not sure if when the time comes, I'll be allowed to pass through the pearly gates?

If I am allowed in and there is a Troop meeting going on?

I'm sure all the Scouts will be Trustworthy, Loyal,Helpful

Friendly,Courteous,Kind,Obedient,Cheerful,Thrifty,Brave,Clean and


Whatever the uniform is up there? Will be worn correctly, be neat and clean.

No Scout will struggle with knots or reading a map or chart.

I'm not sure how the "In the quartermaster's stores" will sound when it accompanied by the sound of harps? But being as the Irish are the best harp players I'm sure they will work it out.

One Saint I really want to meet ad have a chat with is Saint Joseph.

I really don't know much about him.

I find it a little odd that not one single word spoken by him is quoted anywhere in any of the Four Gospels.

As a Christian I believe that he was the husband of Mary and the legal father of Jesus. Who was conceived in the womb of his mother, the Virgin Mary, without the participation of a human father.

Joseph must have been a truly wonderful fellow.

He married Mary when he found out she was pregnant before their arranged marriage. Instead of having townspeople throw rocks at Mary, Joseph took her away and protected her.

He must be one heck of a nice fellow.


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As this thread winds down, I guess I share some of the responsibility for igniting it. After all, I was at the EBOR. I am not in favor of a BSA-sponsored "witch-hunt". But I do feel that when the information is placed in front of you in a sealed envelope (Letter of Recommendation), we have a responsibility to factor it in to the decision. What do I think should have happened?


1. I think the SM and CC should have called a special troop committee meeting to let everyone know the scoop prior to the EBOR. Its' not fair to blindside the Eagle Board members, and then claim "we didn't think it was relevant to scouts". That's a copout...they tried to hide it and they got caught.


2. I think the District was wrong in overturning the original Board's decision. Such things should only occur if there was some procedural error or misinterpretation of the requirements. For requirements such as "morally straight" and "Scout Spirit", there are no stated requirements, so the Troop committee gets to decide.


3. The moment the young couple found out she was pregnant, they gave up their right to the benefits of being a "youth member". They have committed an adult act and now have the responsibilities of adult parents. Playing the childhood game of scouting advancement is no longer a benefit that you should have the luxury of, and you certainly should not expect to be treated like a role model for the younger scouts and the public (aka, "Eagle Scout").


For the record, the scout did not show any sign of remorse, regret, contrition or repentance. His attitude was "hey, stuff happens." In fact, he was proud of the fact that he was living the baby's mother with and "supporting my child" (as much as you can with a part-time minimum wage). He was an "avowed" fornicator, and proud of it. Is that any better than being an avowed homosexual or atheist? Some here seem to think so. He said they DID plan to wed...eventually. Don't know if they ever did. But we all know that such marriages are usually doomed to failure, and we all pay dearly for that lack of judgement.

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What's done is done, but if this situation ever arises again for anyone I would hope:


SM hopefully, at one of the several SM conferences he has with the candidate as they get the Eagle app ready, asks: "Is there anything you need to lay on the table... which might keep an Eagle Board of Review from awarding you your Eagle?" If the Scout says no, then there is a TRUSWORTHINESS issue when the Board sees the letters. That pushes the envelope on the VALUES method.


If the Scout says yes, the SM has the responsibility to actively listen, make sure he understands the issue, give feedback to the Scout, and then seek advice and support from the COR, UC, and District Advancement Chair.


If the SM says NO, then (assuming local policy is letters of recommendation) SM peruses the letters, identifies the problem before he signs the Eagle app to send it to Council.


SM calls an urgent meeting. At the table:

- COR or IH

- DE

- UC or DC



Again, the object of the meeting is to lay the issue out on the table and see what possible paths there are for this particular trail.


Even before WoodBadge, one of the important life lessons I learned was cross-talk pays off, and knowledge is power... but only when it's shared.



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"If the SM says NO, then (assuming local policy is letters of recommendation) SM peruses the letters, identifies the problem before he signs the Eagle app to send it to Council."


In our council, letters of recommendation are always returned to the unit's advancement chairman who is instructed to bring them to the EBOR sealed to be read only by the EBOR members immediately prior to convening the board (not the SM and not the candidate). They are then immediately destroyed (some EBOR chairmen will choose to give to the Eagle Scout after the BOR). I could be wrong, but I thought that was pretty standard.


Likewise, the application getting signed usually precedes the reference request letters going out, since the application is first certified by council (correct dates, etc.) before an EBOR is even scheduled. Our council recommends holding off on sending out reference requests until after the application has been certified by council as being complete and accurate.


I suppose every council is a little different.(This message has been edited by SemperParatus)

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LisaBob, I agree completely.


Eamonn, Betty Ford is a far greater human being than her detractor, the very small man at Bob Jones University. He can't dance either (you know...that religion thing).


Cross-pollenating from another thread regarding letters of recommendation, this council doesn't ask for letters and asks not to receive them if they are supplied anyway.

But it seems to me that the questions we were pressing on Ed could just as fairly be pressed on the reference letter that started this. How does the reference know this to be true? What is the evidence? Etc, etc.

If a reference sends a letter containing very negative, personal information of a very private nature, I have some bad feelings about a BSA program being used as the vehicle to spread this among even more people, especially if any of the claims are open to question. Moreover, in this particular case, a young woman presumably will also have her private life exposed via the BSA program. I have to admit I would find that to be far more reprehensible than what Bob Jones said about Betty Ford.


If I am asked to write a letter of reference, I always, ALWAYS, tell the person immediately whether or not I can do it in a manner that supports their goal. If I can't write a good letter, I decline to write it at all and I tell them why. It would be dishonest for me to agree to write a letter and then use the opportunity to 'stab them in the back' with a bad letter. I consider anyone who did something like that to be a small man (woman).


If the person acting as a reference had merely declined, this would not be an issue for the EBOR or BSA. And the young people who are allegedly involved could face their alleged responsibilities in private.

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"For the record, the scout did not show any sign of remorse, regret, contrition or repentance. His attitude was "hey, stuff happens." In fact, he was proud of the fact that he was living the baby's mother with and "supporting my child" (as much as you can with a part-time minimum wage). He was an "avowed" fornicator, and proud of it."


"Avowed Fornicator" - WOW! What a way to hit a young man over the head with your religious issues! Is it the "living in sin", "fornicating", or having a child that you object to? Would you feel better about the whole thing if they gotten an abortion or had used protection so that they never had a child and so were not living together at that time? Is the "fornicating" all right as long as there is no baby as a result that your taxes have to help pay for?


Not every one, but certainly LOTS of teen boys have sex. Did you try to find out if any of the other boys in that Troop had "fornicated" yet? Or was it just the one one with the baby that you wanted kicked out & branded with an "F"? I would bet that more than just that 1 boy in that Troop had already had sex of some sort.


I must say, if it had been my son, I would have been deeply upset that he acted so foolishly. However, if he stepped up to take responsibility for both the girl & his child, I would have been VERY, VERY PROUD of him!



"But we all know that such marriages are usually doomed to failure, and we all pay dearly for that lack of judgement"


Not necessarily. Yes, they both would face a long, hard, uphill battle, but with some love, help & counseling at least they would all have a fighting chance. Kids do stupid things. I would hazard a guess that EVERY SINGLE person on this forum has, at one time or another, done something REALLY stupid, that had the potential to end badly. Personally, I do not see loving and raising a brand new life as ending badly.


I will now retire from my soapbox!

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Just to throw a twist in the situation, had the lad married the mother change the scenario? Which is the bigger sin? The fornication, the shacking up, or the little baby?

Or hypothetically, if two 16 year olds legally marry (14 in Kansas I think) and have a baby, does that warrant removing the boy from scouting or at least attaining Eagle?

If its ok for scouts to marry and procreate, should troops setup child care during meetings?

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I certainly hope nobody would think the little baby is a sin! Perhaps the sexual act, having been performed while not married is a sin, but the little baby is a miracle given to us by God.


Earlier I mentioned how I think we should discuss these topics with the scouts, and that we are actually tasked to as adult leaders in scouting. How I meant doing that, I think Eamonn explained really well in the Working with Kids forum in the Do We Know Too Much thread he started. We as leaders hear and see things and at times we need to take some kind of action. Eamonn's examples of the actions he took with the drinking scout and the scout with porn on his computer go along with my thoughts there.


Oh, and Eamonn, I bet at her age Betty Ford has better knees too :)



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"For the record, the scout did not show any sign of remorse, regret, contrition or repentance. His attitude was "hey, stuff happens." In fact, he was proud of the fact that he was living the baby's mother with and "supporting my child" (as much as you can with a part-time minimum wage). He was an "avowed" fornicator, and proud of it."


What if he had said the following: "I really regret what happened, and I truly wish we had waited until we got married. I also wish we had been more careful. But I didn't think it was right to ask her to get an abortion, or to give up her baby, I'm living with her and her family until we can save up enough money to get married. I'm not earning much money, but whatever I can earn is going to support my child."

Would that change your mind about what the result should be?


Another question: What if the recommendation letter had said: "Although Scout is in most ways a fine boy, I happen to know that he has been having sex with his girlfriend, because I walked in on them during a outing of our youth group." Do you ask him about it? Eagle or no Eagle?

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