"Rule of 25" and Religious Emblems

[ASM915 90]

OOOOOOOhh, so many worms. I see so many worms , They're coming out of the can.

 

packsaddle, no attacks planned. Just curious about the young one, might give some incite into where he is coming from. That's all.

 

As for Haita,if the Haitian Scouting Program has a Religious Awards Program, and offer up an Medal, that is the Haitian Program, with a government recognized religion in Haiti.

 

Scout, welcome to the ranks of the adults and congrat's on the Eagle.

Scout, The US gov. recognizes and don't discriminate against handicapped with the ADA, they recognize and don't discriminate against people because of ethnicity (or at least shouldn't, natives being the exception). The BSA seems to follow the same lead, correct?. So if the US gov. recognizes a certain religion as a valid religious organization in the US, with privileges and responsibilities that are handed to the other major religious players, and the BSA follows suit on all the other religions, how can they turn their backs on the CoG, since it has been recognized by BIG BROTHER? I don't think BIG BROTHER recognizes DEVIL WORSHIPER's and wouldn't recognize HUMAN SACRAFICIAL RELIGIONS in the US due to the fact of what gets sacrificed, It's against our LAWS, right?

SO since the CoG is a recognizes religious org. by the US, why does the BSA take a euro-centric religious veiwpoint, "OH NO WITCHES" and run the other way? Because of the misconception that Wiccan is Devil Worshipping? Read up young one, they are totally different things

 

Dan, who was the response geared toward. I was trying to get out the point that CoG and Satanism/Devil Worshipping have nothing to do with eachother even though a lot of misinformed people think that they do, therfore the stigma.

 

HAPPY EASTER TO ALL MY FRIENDS, PAGAN AND CHRISTIAN.

[DanKroh 11]

"Dan, who was the response geared toward. I was trying to get out the point that CoG and Satanism/Devil Worshipping have nothing to do with eachother even though a lot of misinformed people think that they do, therfore the stigma."

 

ASM915, my friend, my response was geared toward TheScout in response to remarks which he has since clarified, which I do appreciate.

 

I am very greatful for people who are willing to educate themselves about other religions, such as yourself. On a similar note, I am always, er, amused I guess is the best word, by people who assume that I am not Christian because I have not "heard the Good News", rather than imagine that I *have* heard the Good News and have respectfully said, "no thank you".

 

I am particularly struck by the USNews article that GernBlasten posted a link to in the atheist thread about the ignorance about the Bible of many Americans who profess Christianity. I find it very sad to think that I've studied their holy book more than they have. Personally, I think comparative religion study from a historical perspective should be manditory study in all religious ed classes. After all, how can you know that something is not for you if you don't know what it is?

 

TheScout asks: "Wicca? Satanism? Followers of a hypothetical revived Aztec human sacrafice faith? Devil Worshipers? (I am sure there are some out there) Or what about the People's Temple? (the movement Rev. Jim Jones started which led to the mass suicide/murder by the kool aid in Guyana in the 1970s)

 

I would presume that few of you think the BSA should allow emblems for any of the above or hypothetical groups."

 

I have no problem with the BSA rejecting emblem programs that do not fall in line with the BSA's *official* values. But the BSA has not rejected the Wiccan emblem because of anything specific about the program, but because of a *technicality*. If they have a problem with the CoG curriculum, then they should tell the CoG what specifically they don't like, and give the CoG an opportunity to change the curriculum. But they haven't done that. Instead, they've used a completely arbitrary rule that they made up AFTER CoG applied for recognition to side-step the issue completely. That way, they don't have to actually come out and say that they just don't approve of Wicca, and can maintain the *official* BSA policy that all religions are welcome. It is the pure hypocracy of it that I object to.

[TheScout 10]

ASM915,

 

Does the US government clearly recognize the Wicca? I know there is currently a large dispute over a soldier who they are not allowing to put a Wicca symbol on his tombstone in a federal cemetary. I also wouldn't say they have had the same privileges. When was the last time there was a Wicca Senate or House chaplain as an example?

 

Lastly, I do no think the BSA should take its values for the US government. The Feds have been responsible for some pretty not so moral things over the years, I am sure we can all think of a few. The moral policies of our government tend to change with elections over time.

 

I am an absolutist and believe that values can not change over time. Things are either right or wrong and don't change.

 

"Why does the BSA take a euro-centric religious veiwpoint"

 

Because we are a society based on European civlization! And thank God for that. What other culture has brought such a great influence on our great country. It is not an accident that in the last century or so the rest of the world has been scrambling to adopt Western ways.

 

 

Dan,

 

A agree with your view on the hypocracy of the BSA in this regard which is wrong. I think it is evident from their actions that the BSA does not want a Wicca religious award and they should just come out and say so.

[DanKroh 11]

"Does the US government clearly recognize the Wicca? I know there is currently a large dispute over a soldier who they are not allowing to put a Wicca symbol on his tombstone in a federal cemetary. I also wouldn't say they have had the same privileges. When was the last time there was a Wicca Senate or House chaplain as an example?"

 

Just for clarity of terms, Wicca (not "the" Wicca) is the name of the religious path. Wiccan is the adjectival form, so it would be a Wiccan symbol or a Wiccan chaplain.

 

Wicca is recognized by the US government as a religion, for legal purposes. Wiccan groups have been granted tax excempt status and other perks given to other religious groups. The VA is currently denying the family of a Wiccan soldier who was killed in action to ability to put a pentagram on his headstone, yes. But the military is very inconsistent in their treatment of religion as well. They allow soldiers to declare "Wicca" as their religion, and it can be noted as such on their dog tags (or so I am told by an ex-Navy Wiccan I know). They allow Wiccan "chaplains". But they do certainly give special treatment to Christians, as well.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Havent numerous states and the federal corrections dept have had to set up Wicca worship facilities? If they have, then doesnt that imply goverment sanction of that belief system?

[CalicoPenn 729]

I just have to point this out, only because The Scout asked a hypothetical about an Eagle Scout, specifically himself, starting a religion where the divinity of his pet hamster was central to the religion.

 

It's been done.

 

Some of you may have heard of the Pastafarian Movement. It gained some notice when the state school board in Kansas was proposing to add Intelligent Design to the curriculum and open the curriculum to other religions to present their creation viewpoints (presumably to douse any constitutional issues). The creator of the Pastafarian Movement wrote to the Kansas school authorities requesting that the Pastafarian Movement be included in presentations on creation viewpoints, so that they could spread the message that their deity, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, is responsible for the creation of the universe, the planet and man.

 

The founder of the Pastafarian Movement, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster, is a gentleman named Bobby Henderson - he is also an Eagle Scout.

 

I'd love to see the youth award medal for this religion!

 

Calico

[TheScout 10]

The real question is: Is the Flying Spaghetti Monster a higher power consistent with the DRP. If the Pastafarian Movement applied for an emblem should we grant it? They do have a deity?

 

I say no.

[packsaddle 753]

I earned my religious award and I would say 'Welcome' to a Flying Spaghetti Monster equivalent award. How does its existence diminish my award or anyone else's for that matter. What business is it of anyone who's faith it isn't, what award another faith grants? If you don't share their faith, THAT should be sufficient reason to keep your nose out of the faith held by someone else. I don't understand this need to try to judge, to run, or to limit, the lives of other people if they aren't affecting us. To me it goes against the golden rule.

[DanKroh 11]

"The real question is: Is the Flying Spaghetti Monster a higher power consistent with the DRP. If the Pastafarian Movement applied for an emblem should we grant it? They do have a deity?

 

I say no."

 

Their deity is the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I'd love to see the design of their religious emblem, if it is anything like the FSM emblem I've seen on the back of some cars. (Note to self, gotta get me one of those)

 

TheScout, can you please name for me the deity worshipped by Buddists (who have an approved emblem)?

By Scientologists (who are an approved CO)?

By Zoroastrians (who have an approved emblem)?

By followers of Meher Baba (who have an approved emblem)?

By Wiccans?

 

(Hint, only three of those religions have a central deity/deities. Do you know which ones they are?)

 

[TheScout 10]

Packsaddle,

 

I was not judging any religion on its merits. I was judging whether my organization, the BSA should accept the award. On that premise I think I have the right to at least make my opinion known.

 

And I think it does affect our whole organization. If we allow the Flying Spaghetti Monster Emblem, the BSA becomes a joke. I do not think any of us want that.

 

 

Dan,

 

I must admit I can't answer your question. I only know the basics of Scientology, Zorosrianism, and of the Wiccans and do not have the slightest clue who Meher Baba is (until a moment ago when curiosity forced me to look real quick)

 

 

I also must confess that though I have always down the idea behind the DRP I have not read them in a long time and hence do not recall them.

 

I do find it interesting though as it states in part,

 

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. . . . The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members."

 

I know it also goes on to say that the BSA is "absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training." But that first quote seems the BSA is pretty set on a monotheistic type of faith.

 

 

 

[epalmer84 10]

>The VA is currently denying the family of a Wiccan soldier who was killed in action to ability to put a pentagram on his headstone

 

Nevada sidestepped the VA. The Nevada attorney general ruled that the state had jurisdiction over state veterans' cemeteries. Sgt. Patrick Stewart was buried in the Northern Nevada Veterans Memorial Cemetery. The headstone with the Wiccan emblem was installed just before Thanksgiving 2006. It still does not address the VA issue, and has no application to federal cemeteries.

 

DanKroh: I am curious as to why the Wiccan religious emblems are not offered through P.R.A.Y.? I would think that would be a first step, and would make the programs available to the GSUSA and Camp Fire USA if they so desire.

 

Ed

[Trevorum 24]

Fie on the Flying Spaghetti Monster! Her Holiness, the Invisible Pink Unicorn (pbuh), is a far superior deity!

 

"Like all religions, the faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorn is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that she is pink; we logically know that she is invisible because we can't see her."

[ASM915 90]

Scout, my Young Eagle, You mentioned HAMSTERS. By chance is that Al's Friend HARVEY THE WONDER HAMSTER from Canada?

 

My 20 year old use to be very inflexible in his religious viewpoints until he saw, for better or worse, how extreme several of his fellow youth group members were in their stance and viewpoints. He then realized, yes there is an ultimate right and an ultimate wrong. The right being that we should be striving for brotherly love and peace the world over, and that the wrong is the preaching and teaching of prejudism, inflexible viewpoints and bigotry, which unfortunately many Christian religions/denominations do whether they realize it or not, (ie. Marry thine own kind. Who is thine own kind, Christian, right?.) Now if asked about helping with missions work he politely refuses, reason being, he feels that it is wrong to possibly push his religious views on others like some were pushed on him. If they come asking him, fine, he talks. He is extremely tolerant of others when it comes to their cultures and religions.

Have you figured out who HARVEY is yet?

As I've said before, if the Gov.(and I'm not always a great fan of them) recognizes a religion, it would be nice if the BSA would follow suit. I really don't think the Gov. would ever recognize some of the groups you threw out there and neither should the BSA.

Also be careful with the Absolutist, RIGHT or WRONG only viewpoints are what get us into wars.

Are the European/Western ways really better? I still hate thinking what my Eruo-centric ancestors did to my Native ancestor when they arrived from across the pond.

Stick to your wits and don't feel browbeaten by me. I like playing Devils Advocate when it can open minds. I appreciate and respect your opinions and posts.

 

Calico, I've got the design for the Pastafarian's Religious Awards Medal, a ribbon with the Chef Boyardee Company colors, the Medal will be a MEATBALL and SPAGHETTI tassels.

[TheScout 10]

Many points made in a single post, but I'll take a stab.

 

I do find it unfortunate that you consider Christians that are "inflexible" in their beliefs bigots. I would use the term decvout and admire them. In our society there are very few who stick to beliefs in the wake of so much criticism. It is much easier to accept everyone's beliefs, whether you believe in your heart if they are right or wrong.

 

You say the BSA should not recognize all the groups which I threw out there. All groups which have some form of ostensible higher power. So it seems you believe the BSA should not recognize all religions. We only differ I where to draw the line.

 

I do object to the contention that being a moral absolutist necesarily will lead to war. I do not know anyone more convinced of the moral failings of the Soviet Union than President Reagan, and he never brought us to war with them. There is a great difference between not accepting wrong and using violence to crush it.

 

I think the Western Ways were better. Look at what they brought to the New World. Roads, schools, libraries, literature, scientific agriculture, metalurgy, medicine, theatre. The list could go on and on.

 

I appreciate you playing devils advocate. Maybe I even play one at times too.

[ASM915 90]

Scout, most of the groups who you named would fall more into the category of sects, more so then recognized religions.

 

A clarification on my last post:

I do admire the devout Christians (being one myself, maybe not as devout as others) for their fortitude, especially in toady's world, with toady's morals and ethics. What I abhor is when any religion or a Christian denomination either twist doctrine or are so tunnelvisioned, that there is no other way except their own way, the rest will burn in Hell, and they use racism and prejudism and bigotry against others, even their brethren from different denominations because they don't see eye to eye.

Maybe it would be a better world if us Christians led the way, abolished all the different denominations, and truly started practicing the doctrine of Jesus's real teachings. Why so many denominations? I DONT LIKE THE WAY YOU DO THIS OR THAT. This is why we are the way we are today. So sad.

 

Yes I believe in Jesus as Son of God. Yes I believe in the doctrine. For those that don't, they'll have to see what happens in the end. If they decide to join us in our believes, good but I'm not going to impose those beliefs on others just because I was raised to believe my way is right.

DA speaking now. What if we were really wrong and one of the others were right. Wouldn't we be in for a real surprise at the end.

I apologize if I offended you on the absolutist statement. I didn't mean that your stance would send us to war. What I was trying to convey is that in the past, narrow-minded people have taken a similar stance and led their people to war because they wouldn't give on something that was really minor or they were fanatical.

 

As for the western ways, a lot of advances, yes, but also a lot of destruction. Assimulation is not the way. Look at STAR TREK and The BORG. Find and sit with some brothers, possibly talk with some of the Elders about how it was precontact. You might be surprised Two books to read, Seton's "GOSPEL OF THE REDMAN". You can order it through your Councils store, and 1422. Civilizations rise, on occasion destroy the previous one (records and all), future civilizations have no idea what really happen, and thaen think they made things better for everyone, when sometimes they didn't.(This message has been edited by ASM915)(This message has been edited by ASM915)