Group Protests Boy Scouts Exclusionary Policies

[ohadam 10]

If you see gay leaders as a risk, you're homophobic by definition.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Yet as a heterosexual male I am able to take the Co-ed Crew backpacking and no one thinks anything of it. (done of course with at least one female over 21 on the trip and all YP principles followed)

[evmori 11]

If you see gay leaders as a risk, you're homophobic by definition.

 

And your point is ................................

 

For me it isn't a fear of something happening. It's more not wanting my children to think that type of lifestyle is OK.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SaintCad 10]

"'I think you will find that deep down, even the least homophobic parent sees gay leaders as a risk that they are not willing to tolerate.'"

 

"Whether the risk is perceived or real, I agree."

 

 

So I'm wrong when I state that as a parent of a Cubbie, I do NOT see gay leaders as a risk?! Interesting that you two are willing to make statements about what ALL of the rest of us think.

 

 

[DanKroh 11]

Ed says "For me it isn't a fear of something happening. It's more not wanting my children to think that type of lifestyle is OK."

 

By your reasoning, Ed, since smoking is a lifestyle choice that I don't want my children to think is OK, the BSA should ban all leaders who smoke.

 

Just out of curiosity, Ed, what do you want your children to think about "that type of lifestyle"?

[evmori 11]

What do I want them to think? That homosexuality isn't from God.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SR540Beaver 116]

Dan,

 

Can you honestly say that you can not see a difference in smoking and sexual orientation? Apples and oranges. Actually, iron and carrots. They can not even be comapred as two different kinds of fruit.

 

I've stated before that my sister is a lesbian and one of my best friends from college is a gay pastor and I love both of them dearly. Even so, I had an authority figure in my life who I respected deeply that attempted to molest me as an older teen. I don't consider him a pedophile as he didn't go after children. As I discovered, he WAS a closeted and married gay and he had hit on other young men in our group. No one chose to talk about it. Does that mean that all gay men hit on teens? Of course not. Does having gay scout leaders give greater potential for temptation and the possibility of something happening? Absolutely. I knew enough to grab his hand, move it and firmly tell him NO. Twice in fact. Not every kid will. I will never knowingly place a child or teen in the situation I found myself in.

[DanKroh 11]

Beaver asks: "Can you honestly say that you can not see a difference in smoking and sexual orientation?"

 

You are right, there is a big difference. Smoking is a choice, and a very unhealthy one at that. Sexual orientation isn't a choice. I find it much more likely that my son is likely to pick up smoking as a habit from an authority figure than he is to pick up homosexuality.

 

As far as your example of the closeted gay (potential) molester, for every one of those you give, I can give you at least ten examples of heterosexuals who have molested boys and girls of both the same and opposite gender as themselves. According to statistics, the risk from heterosexual leaders is FAR greater than the risk from an avowed homosexual leader. Sorry, but the youth protection argument against gays has been debunked again and again, yet it still gets brought up again and again. Do you dispute the proven fact that the VAST MAJORITY of child molesters/pedophiles are heterosexual?

 

Ed, if homosexuality is not from God, where is it from?

[Hunt 11]

To generalize this a bit, what are the reasons that I would not want a person living what I consider to be an immoral lifestyle to be my child's unit leader? I think there are several possibilities:

1. I might be concerned that the leader would do something to harm my child.

2. I might be concerned that the leader's position as a role model might influence my child to adopt the same immoral lifestyle.

3. I might have a more general concern that exposure to such a person might generally cause my child to question his family's moral teachings before he is sufficiently mature to do so.

 

Depending on your own moral views, and the particular lifestyle involved, all of these might make sense. For example, a leader who drinks heavily or uses illegal drugs might fit all three. A person living in an intimate relationship that I consider immoral is not likely to fit the first, but it may fit the other two. You also have to take into account how seriously immoral the particular lifestyle is in your own set of views--clearly, there are some people who think smoking is morally worse than homosexuality, and others who think the opposite.

So while it may make some people feel better to use labels like "homophobic" for anyone who thinks homosexuality is immoral, that really doesn't get to the concern that many parents would have. If somebody didn't want a heterosexual leader who is living with somebody out of wedlock, would that be a "phobia" too?

[GernBlansten 10]

Hunt, I understand your concern that demonstrated immoral behaviour might make you uncomfortable.

I got to thinking about our scoutmaster. He might be a smoker, but he has never smoked in front of us. He might be a heavy drinker, but he hasn't ever drank alcohol in front of us. He might be a drug user, but he hasn't taken drugs in front of us. He might be a child molester, but he hasn't molested anyone in front of us. I know he is married, because I've met his wife. I guess he could be a closeted homosexual but he has never demonstrated sexual behaviour in front of us. I guess I should just give him a pass until he does one of those things in front of the scouts. Until then, he is a good moral role model.

 

So tell me, if a scoutmaster is a homosexual but never engages in homosexual behaviour in the presence of scouts, how can he be a poor moral role model?

[DanKroh 11]

Hunt,

 

The only one of your examples of "immoral behavior" that the BSA has made a national, blanket policy about is homosexuality. If an unmarried heterosexual leader living with someone is considered immoral by so many, why doesn't the BSA issue a blanket policy banning them as leaders, as well? Same goes for smokers and heavy drinkers.

 

Instead, they allow the units to decide on the fitness of these "immoral" individuals (assuming they pass the CORI) as leaders based on their individual merits and the level of comfort that the unit COR and parents have with that individual. Why can't the BSA do the same with homosexuals who want to be leaders? Leave it up to the unit.

 

You can be dismissive of the term "homophobia" as an unwarranted label, but it doesn't change the fact that homosexuals are the ONLY group that national has singled out to ban as a group for a characteristic that a great deal of evidence points to being a genetic predisposition.

[evmori 11]

Since this statement is inaccurate

 

Sexual orientation isn't a choice.

 

this question is moot

 

Ed, if homosexuality is not from God, where is it from?

 

but I'll answer anyways. Homosexuality is a choice made by humans. Show me where in the Bible homosexuality is OK with God?

 

So tell me, if a scoutmaster is a homosexual but never engages in homosexual behaviour in the presence of scouts, how can he be a poor moral role model?

 

Because homosexuality is immoral!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[DanKroh 11]

Ed, as long as you continue to support this fallacious viewpoint "Homosexuality is a choice made by humans", then I'm afraid we have no common ground on which to base this discussion. This also begs the discussion from earlier of if homosexuality is a choice made by humans, why is it present in the lower animals as well? Or do penguins, swans and rams make that choice, too?

 

I am, however, further curious about this view of what comes from God vs. what is OK with God. Does everything that comes from God have God's stamp of approval in the Bible? What about genetic-based diseases (Down's syndrome, diabetes, Huntington's chorea)? Since they are encoded in the DNA, one presumes they come from God, or not? Are they OK with God?(This message has been edited by DanKroh)

[GernBlansten 10]

Ed,

If the scoutmaster never engages in or promotes homosexual activity in the presence of scouts, how will the scouts know he is a homosexual? How can be be a poor role model for them?

 

Reverse the arguement. If a scoutmaster engages in or promotes heterosexual activity in the presence of scouts, is he a good role model?

[SR540Beaver 116]

I for one do not buy the argument that homosexuality is a choice. Gays are born that way for the most part. That being said, it is still an abnormality. I am an insulin dependent diabetic. It wasn't a choice. It is an abnormality. I differ from the norm. I can't ignore my diabetes or cure it. I can only control it and attempt to live as normal a life as possible. One hundred years ago, people with my abnormality eventually died after going blind and losing limbs to the disease. The FAA will not allow me to have a pilots license because I could easily kill myself and others if my blood sugar climbs too high or drops too low. My son leaves for Northern Tier in a little over a week. I can't go with him there or to Philmont either. BSA won't allow it as it is too dangerous for me personally and puts the boys I would be leading in jeopardy as well. While I my not like it on a personal level, I do not take exception to it. The FFA and BSA's stance on my abnormality is prudent. As an honest 49 year old man, I can tell you that my range of what I find attractive in women has changed over the years. When I was 16, I didn't find 25 year old women attractive. At 49, I find 16 year old to 55 year old women sexually attractive. Do I act on it? No. But I could. I'd be lying if I said that young firm and toned 16 to 18 year old women are not sexually attractive. Now, if I am a man who is born with a sexual orientation that is different from the norm and find my same gender sexually attractive, the potential is there for me to find the 16 to 18 year old scouts under my authority sexually attractive. I was under the authority of such a person. Maybe he was 1 in 1,000 or 10,000. That is beside the point. A homosexual man will find other men attractive....period. I don't want my son to have to find out if his scoutmaster is the 1 or 1 of the other 999. It is prudent to exclude people with a sexual abnormality that attracts them to their own gender from leadership.

 

For those who want to allow gays, how would you counsel a scout who has been hit on or molested by that 1 in 1,000 leader.........after the fact? How would you justify your stance to him? Gee Timmy, I'm sorry that Scoutmaster Bruce molested you, but you need to keep in mind that God made him attracted to other men and it is just as normal as you being attracted to the girls at school. He shouldn't have done what he did to you, but it is normal for him. How consoled will Timmy be that adults who are supposed to look out for him actually argued to allow people in leadership who could hurt him.

 

Sexuality is a primal instinct that some have trouble controling. A smoking scoutmaster can always take a walk behind a building for a smoke. There is no comparison, regardless of how nasty of a health habit you consider smoking to be.