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North: Values under siege

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funscout writes:

Merlyn, If Rooster says he would kill children if God tells him to, does that make him better or worse in your eyes?




If he says he would disobey God, does that make him better or worse in your eyes?




Since you don't believe in God, I would think you would be happy to see someone struggle and then decide to disobey God.


I'd rather they decide that gods are as real as demons or leprechauns and should be dropped as superstitions, but disobeying would be better than obeying. I would prefer that the 9/11 terrorists had not decided that their god wanted them to kill people, either. That's one of the problems with putting your moral decision-making into the hands of imaginary beings.


The example you gave was from the Old Testament. As we all know, times are quite different now than they were before Jesus' time. I can not imagine killing a child just because God tells me to.


So why was it OK back then?


However, I know that God no longer does that


Oh great, someone who "knows" exactly what his god will and will not do.



Abraham was tested by God (again, in the Old Testament days) and although he was saddened greatly, he was prepared to kill his own son, Isaac, as God had directed him to do. I can not imagine being willing to do that. If I had lived in those days, then maybe I would understand, but I would have to say that I would disobey God if he told me to do that today. I am confident that God will no longer "test" people in that way, so the question is actually a moot point.


No, that's ducking the question, and claiming that you know what your god would and wouldn't do. Slightly arrogant in my view.



Also, as most people know, Christians are human beings, and thus, not perfect.


But your god supposedly is perfect, and murdering children is, or at least was, OK with him.


How long ago would a child murderer have to have committed his murder for you to be OK living next door to him with children?

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Wow, I missed a lot, but I have one last reply for Rooster.


Rooster said: "Sounds like youre taking this a little personally. Let me assure you, I know many learned people as well and they do not share your view. And interestingly, I doubt you would give them much credence. So why even go there try arguing the points presented."


Can't say I take anything said by an anonymous voice on the Internet "personally". However, I do object to having my words twisted and implications made that I said something I didn't, or that I'm "avoiding" a debate because someone decided to bring up points that I didn't originally address and get confrontational about them.


But you and I do agree about one thing, Rooster, when you said "But, I have no great desire to pursue a discussion with you."

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I'm always amazed at how many atheists and non-Judeo-Christians read the Bible and quote verses. It must be very satisfying to them to read all those stories, and know that they are far too smart to believe any of it. To know they can't be fooled into believing there is a God. They must feel like the smartest people on the planet!

What a shame that they can't carry such intelligence beyond their life, that they will only turn into worm food once they die. I would be very depressed if I thought that my 70 years or so on this planet was it, that there was nothing beyond.

I can't imagine my children as anything other than gifts from God. I guess some see their kids as just a product of biology, but I never will be able to do that.

In the end, if I'm wrong about all this, then I'm just dead - end of story. If the atheists are wrong, then eternity is a mighty long time.

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Hey, look at the timeline of my last post - here it is Friday morning, 3/10, and the message shows I posted it tomorrow. Hey Merlyn, how do you explain that? I'm doing time travel! Now if I can only find the results of the Saturday lottery drawing and buy those tickets today...

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BrentAllen says: " I'm always amazed at how many atheists and non-Judeo-Christians read the Bible and quote verses."


How are we supposed to know that we *don't* believe something unless we learn about it first? It's not a matter of feeling smart or superior, just common sense, in my personal experience. What I find amazing are people who condemn a religion or a viewpoint when they don't really know anything about it!


Edited to add: Personally, I plan on partying in TirNaNog when my time here is done.... ;)(This message has been edited by DanKroh)

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Brent, the answer is obvious


It's astounding;Time is fleeting;Madness takes its toll. (how many times can you visit this site a day before you are verifiable "manic"?) But listen closely... Not for very much longer. I've got to keep control. (then again, maybe as a moderator I need to let go, no be stricter, no be lenient...)I remember doing the time-warp Drinking those moments when The Blackness would hit me And the void would be calling... Let's do the time-warp again.

It's just a jump to the left. And then a step to the right. With your hands on your hips. You bring your knees in tight. But it's the pelvic thrust That really drives you insane. Let's do the time-warp again. Let's do the time-warp again. It's so dreamy, oh fantasy free me.So you can't see me,(no, I wont sign my name) no, not at all. In another dimension, with voyeuristic intention, Well secluded, I see all. With a bit of a mind flip You're into the time slip. And nothing can ever be the same. You're spaced out on sensation. Like you're under sedation. Let's do the time-warp again.


Happy week end



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I suspect I'm the only one who get's the TirNaNog reference! You'll find me over at the Plough & Stars. Doubt we'll run into Ollie at either one.




Sorry guys can't help myself. The thread has reminded me of the words of Mr. Zimmerman:


"Oh God said to abraham kill me a son

Abe said man you must be puttin me on

God said no, abe said what

God say you can do what you wanna but

The next time you see me comin you better run

Well abe said where dyou want this killin done

God said out on highway 61

Well georgia sam he had a bloody nose

Welfare department wouldnt give him no clothes

They asked poor howard where can I go

Howard said theres only one place I know

Sam said tell me quick man I got to run

Oh howard just pointed with his gun

And said that way down highway 61

Well mack the finger said to louie the king

i got 40 red white and blue shoestrings

And a thousand telephone that dont ring.

Do you know where I can get rid of these things?

And louie the king said let me think for a minute son

Then he said yes I think it can be easily done

Just take everything down to highway 61

Now the 5th daughter on the 12th night

Told the first father that things werent right

my complexion, she says, is much too white

He said come here and step into the light

He said hmm youre right let me tell the 2nd mother this has been done

But the 2nd mother was with the 7th son

And they were both out on highway 61

Now the roving gambler he was very bored

Trying to create a next world war

He found a promoter who nearly fell off the floor

He said i never engaged in this kind of thing before

But yes, i think it can be very easily done

Well just put some bleachers out in the sun

And have it on highway 61"



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Merlyn - It comes down to this: I am not going to make definitive, declarative statements about what I would do if God presented me with a dilemma, merely to demonstrate my convictions to a skeptic. If/When I am presented with such a scenario, I am certain that God will give me enough insight, moral fortitude, and wisdom to do whatever he asks of me. And if I fail, I am confident that I am forgiven through the blood of Christ. However, to speculate about what He might ask us to do, much less to ponder His motivation in a hypothetical, is to dishonor God. We are infinitely less in substance, in every way, than He. I will not pretend for one second, even to satisfy your curiosity, to be otherwise.


DanKroh - I objected to your portrayal of history and indicated why. Everything else after that is not of my making - but yours.


Lisabob No, we are all free to criticize and formulate opinions about one another at will. I just find some sources of criticism to be more ironic than others. And whether or not Ollie North deserves the title of weasel, I do not know. No matter, I still like many of the things he says. So if the point of this thread was to express "disgust at the idea of Oliver North as a defender of the values supported by the BSA", then you're right - I must have gotten distracted, because I don't agree with that view.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

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You are right that I should not presume to know what God will or will not do. I stand corrected.


My feelings stem from the fact that after Jesus came and died for our sins, God no longer asked certain things (such as animal sacrifice) of his people. I won't know until I get to Heaven, why God did or did not do certain things.


Also, the Joshua reference isn't completely clear to me, since the verses AFTER the one that states that "They completely destroyed everything in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys - everything." read as follows: (Joshua 6:22-23) "Then Joshua said to the two spies, 'Keep your promise. Go to the prostitute's house and bring her out, along with all her family.' The young men went in and brought out Rahab, her father, mother, brothers, and all the other relatives who were with her. They moved her whole family to a safe place near the camp of Israel." (Rahab is the woman who helped Joshua's spies.)


I don't know what really happened since the Bible says that everything was destroyed, and then in the next verse has an intact family being brought out.


As a Christian, I try to follow the question: "What would Jesus do?" I do not believe He would intentionally harm someone, and that's the way I try to live. I don't know for sure what I would have done if I had lived in Old Testament times.


As has been pointed out, Christians look at death differently than non-Christians. When my 12 year old brother died of brain cancer over 20 years ago, my whole family was devastated. I am so thankful my parents had raised me as a Christian, because after my initial anger at God, I was able to see that my beloved brother was no longer suffering, and was in the best place imaginable. It was selfish of me to wish that he stay on Earth, only to continue to suffer. I do not understand why God does not spare the innocent, like my brother. I will someday understand the whole picture when I join my brother in Heaven. How sad for those people who do not look forward to being reunited with their departed loved ones.


Merlyn, I hope you realize that I am not against you. As a Christian, I must try to help all of God's children, whether they are believers or not. I do not look down on you or feel angry with you just because you do not believe. I will pray for you, as that is all I can do. The rest is up to you.

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funscout writes: "As has been pointed out, Christians look at death differently than non-Christians.... How sad for those people who do not look forward to being reunited with their departed loved ones."


I'm not sure if you meant to imply that all non-Christians do not believe in an afterlife, but many non-Christians DO look forward to being reunited with their departed loved ones. Just their version of Heaven and the afterlife may not be the same as yours. Or they might believe in reincarnation and that they will meet the departed again here on Earth in their next life. I know that TirNaNog awaits me when I pass out of this existence, and that all my loved ones will be waiting there for me. To some of them, it may look like Heaven, but to me it will be TirNaNog. And that thought has brought me great comfort in the losses I have experienced.

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Hey, the same individual who wrote about Hwy 61 told me that God was on our side too. He (Dylan not God) must know something because he has been Jewish, "born again" Christian, and then Jewish again!


Oh my name it is nothin'

My age it means less

The country I come from

Is called the Midwest

I's taught and brought up there

The laws to abide

And that land that I live in

Has God on its side.


Oh the history books tell it

They tell it so well

The cavalries charged

The Indians fell

The cavalries charged

The Indians died

Oh the country was young

With God on its side.


Oh the Spanish-American

War had its day

And the Civil War too

Was soon laid away

And the names of the heroes

I's made to memorize

With guns in their hands

And God on their side.


Oh the First World War, boys

It closed out its fate

The reason for fighting

I never got straight

But I learned to accept it

Accept it with pride

For you don't count the dead

When God's on your side.


When the Second World War

Came to an end

We forgave the Germans

And we were friends

Though they murdered six million

In the ovens they fried

The Germans now too

Have God on their side.


I've learned to hate Russians

All through my whole life

If another war starts

It's them we must fight

To hate them and fear them

To run and to hide

And accept it all bravely

With God on my side.


But now we got weapons

Of the chemical dust

If fire them we're forced to

Then fire them we must

One push of the button

And a shot the world wide

And you never ask questions

When God's on your side.


In a many dark hour

I've been thinkin' about this

That Jesus Christ

Was betrayed by a kiss

But I can't think for you

You'll have to decide

Whether Judas Iscariot

Had God on his side.


So now as I'm leavin'

I'm weary as Hell

The confusion I'm feelin'

Ain't no tongue can tell

The words fill my head

And fall to the floor

If God's on our side

He'll stop the next war.


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DanKroh writes:

I'm not sure if you meant to imply that all non-Christians do not believe in an afterlife, but many non-Christians DO look forward to being reunited with their departed loved ones


That isn't even an atheist/theist distinction; not all theists believe in an afterlife (deists don't necessarily do), and some atheists believe in some sort of afterlife (e.g. some atheists in India believe in reincarnation).

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I think it's pretty safe to say that you've insulted a lot of self-respecting weasels out there. :)


Re: Ollie North. Broke the law, lied about it, got off on a technicality. Now, makes big bucks making speeches about integrity to his believers. No wonder young people today are dissillusioned about the hypocrisy of their leaders (the same as many of us were when we were that age).

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