Leave No Trace and Drawing the Line

[GernBlansten 10]

Strawman?

Do you disagree that those people who trashed that campsite thought LNT was a crock?

[Rooster7 11]

The people who left that garbage out in the woods are idiots. But folks, who are "less than enthused" about LNT, are not guilty of condoning that behavior.

 

Conversely - You dont find it to be a little obscene that folks get upset when somebody wonders off the beaten path and steps on a flower...or picks a flower? I know the NLT rational, but its overstated. The woods are not going to disappear or become devoid of its plants and animals because some folks don't embrace LNT with the same fanaticism.

[dan 10]

I wrote early

This topic seems a little mild for this forum.

At his time I would like to say never mind.

 

A person or two going off the trail or picking a few flowers or stepping on plants, proably is not going to upset the system, but we do not have a couple of people in the wilderness, there is thousands in yellowstone we are talking millions, now what if those thousands/millons of people pick flowers and make trails all over the wilderness?

 

Does anyone know why more trails are not considered good for the wilderness?

Why are animal trails considered better for the wilderness than human trails?

[Rooster7 11]

And we have millions of acres of parks. We don't need LNT as much as we need some law enforcement for the real abusers.

[packsaddle 753]

I do agree that we need better enforcement. I wish the NPS and other agencies could get the funding they need to accomplish all they need to do. 'nuther topic, I guess.

This weekend we did a backpack into a very popular, newly-protected wilderness area. Thirty years ago when off-road vehicles were allowed in there, there was horrendous erosion, damage to streams, timber and wildlife poaching, and at one campsite alone, I personally picked up 15 garbage bags (the 50 gallon size) of litter, a lot of it associated with beer. I could have picked up more but that was all my vehicle would hold.

Today, with limited access (foot-travel only) and LNT guidelines, some of those roads have 30 year-old trees and other cover vegetation - the others have deep layers of leaves and pine needles. Nearly all the trails are along old logging roads and all of them are in great shape now. And that camp site, we just came back from it and there wasn't a single piece of trash, before or after our visit. We left depressions in the leaves where our tents had been. The wind will take care of that quickly.

LNT is really taking a lesson from the 'Tragedy of the Commons' and asking all those who share the resource to apply the golden rule. I think it is a good thing.

[GernBlansten 10]

Reading Roosters comments just makes me bow my head and shake it in disbelief.

[Rooster7 11]

GB,

 

No problem. Just don't let any dandruff fall onto the forest floor?

[johndaigler 10]

For most of us, LNT is about teaching the boys to be careful and respectful of our environment. LNT is every bit as important as they walk down their school's hallways as it is when they play in the park or participate in an outdoor Scout adventure.

 

It's less about how careful we are, and more about what we instill in the boys. If they catch us arguing (badly) like this, they may learn to be careful and respectful in the out of doors, but not with others. If we teach dutiful respect for squirrel ergonomics but demonstrate mistreatment of our peers, I think we're missing the point -- but the boys never miss the point. They learn exactly what we teach.

 

jd

[Lisabob 13]

Well put, John. I can't believe anybody would get into presonal attacks over LNT???

 

Yes, I am certain that there are people out there who take LNT to such an extreme as to be ridiculous; then again, that seems to be true of nearly every part of the scout program. There are core groups of fanatics out there for everything.

 

However, my experience with learning and teaching LNT to cubs and their parents is that most of the kids I interacted with had no acquaintance AT ALL with the basic principles of LNT. None. Now, how is teaching boys (and parents, who tended to be worse) to be more respectful of nature a bad thing? Really? Note that many of these same families actually do a lot of camping (Michigan's upper peninsula isn't that far away from here), so even small changes in behavior could reap big bonuses in terms of environmental protection.

 

By the way - BrentAllen made a comment that he is a conservationist, not an environmentalist. Honestly the biggest political mistake "environmentalists" ever made was to draw any kind of distinction between the two. One need not be a loony to want to protect the environment.

 

Rooster, for a minute there I though you might have taken dan's comment about the mildness of this forum as a personal challenge to liven things up??

 

Lisa'bob

[ozemu 10]

I think that LNT (and other min impact policies) are ideals and like our oath / promise it is something to strive for in understanding as much as in practice.

 

As our understanding of impact develops we understand more about the planet and about our being on it.

 

As we water it down then our quest for knowledge and understanding is retarded. Just because the grass won't stand up is no reason to give up on trying to figure out why. Or marvelling that it can.

 

There will always be people who lack empathy for the environment (social as well as other aspects) and I suspect that education will help reduce their numbers more than enforcement.

 

LNT is an investment of effort and knowledge that increases the value we place on the environment.

 

OGE I don't cheat so much as regret and work hard to fix the messes I find to compensate for my inability to achieve perfect LNT.

 

By the way, to facilitate a different view of LNT I refer to the bush as my church/mosque/place of worship. Please treat it as such - be respectful and tidy. Young people seem to 'get' that.

 

In one place I can point out 400 year old grass trees and ask the kids to treat them like a grandmother of the same age. They 'get' that too.

[bbng 10]

I was teaching my children LNT ideals before knowing what LNT was. Simply put, to me it means being respectful of the property (don't carve trees, pick flowers, wander off the trail, toss trash) and of others using it (have fun outdoors, talk to one another, but don't hike behind someone else being loud). These things are simply good manners and safety anyway.

 

One trail that I enjoy happens to be home to only 6 of a particular wildflower; walking off the trail and stepping on that area would diminish or wipe out that wildflower. That makes the trail less enjoyable. Wandering off the trail also leads to a greater possibility of injury or becoming lost.

 

Another trail that I was going to attempt, a rather challenging trail, has just closed down an entire portion (as in roughly 5 miles). Why? Vandalism, trash. Therefore, because it costs money and man hours to maintain a trail, the trail was closed because it had been so badly abused. A lot of people lose out now. Funds and volunteers chose instead to work on two other trails, and sometimes it takes years to get a trail in shape/repaired.

 

Wearing orange. Well, in this state, in many places where I hike, it's the law to wear orange during certain times of the year. The law takes precedence, and quite frankly, to try to blend into the environment seems silly to me. Dangerous too. I'd like to be seen, and I sure do want to know who else is about as well. I've met many people on trails, and people are part of the enjoyment.

 

I see LNT as a guideline on how to have fun in the outdoors while keeping it fun for myself for future visits as well as others during current and future visits. I like the phrase "take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints", and that guides my time outdoors. Except in my own yard: the kids can pick all the flowers they like and run and yell, but they may not carve living trees and may chop any trees that have fallen for the fire circle that is on our ground. We like fires, like chopping wood and carving and whittling, like digging--so it's known that home is ok for this but on another's property, it's not unless one is invited to do so.(This message has been edited by bbng)