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Glenn

Younger scouts allowed on campouts/meetings?

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Once again, thanks for all the replies.

 

The committee meeting was held yesterday and the Webelos leader came in and made his pitch. I was wrong in one regard. The boys have a parent that is uninterested in their kids doing any type of extra-curricular activity and it is actually the grandmother who believes strongly enough in the Scouting program to bring the boys to Scouts. She also has attended every campout her two grandsons have attended and is asking for separate accommadations when we do cabin camping (twice a year).

 

I agree with everyone above the problem was started two (or more) years ago when the younger boy was allowed to join his older brother's den. But the facts are that the boy has basically done the requirements for the Arrow of Light. Whether the pack actually awards him this achievement remains to be seen. Since the boy is still in third grade, he should not have been allowed to do this.

 

Some suggestions were given to the Webelos leader:

1) Wait one year (for either the younger boy or both) and then join the troop.

2) Asked if help driving the older boy to and from the meetings would alleviate the grandmother's concerns. Not really because there are no plans for having the younger boy "re-join" a Webelos den.

3) We explained the difference in maturity between a 9 year old and a 13 year old (let alone between him and older scouts). Wasn't a concern of the Webelos leader or the grandmother since the grandmother planned on attending all campouts.

 

Since the committee meeting was running behind, no final decision was made. But I am sure the Webelo's leader (by the way, this leader made it clear that it was all of his boys or none) and the grandmother would like a decision quickly. I am going to share this thread with the committee members so they can peruse all of your thoughts. Hopefully, we can then come to a decision next meeting.

 

Thanks again,

Glenn(This message has been edited by Glenn)

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He's a third grader!!!!!!!!!! So he just turned 9 in the last few months (I'm guessin here).

 

No way! I am a den leader for a group of 3rd graders. Some are very smart and mature, but they are not ready for Boy Scouts by a long shot. NO WAY should you let this child be a Boy Scout. I also speak on that as a mother of an 11 year old 6th grader.

 

Encourage the older boy to be a Boy Scout and have the younger boy wait until he meets the requirement. Even if they give him the AOL award, it is not legitimate and you know it. That would be dishonest to accept him based on a false AOL. What a disservice to the boy.

 

 

 

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All my boys or none?

 

I really don't think it is the decision of the Webelos leader. It's the boys decision.

 

Grandma plans to attend all the campouts?

 

Has grandma talked to the new SM about this? Again, it's not her decision. It's the SM decision.

 

Boy Scouts is completely different from Cubs. A 9 year old might have a blast paling around with the older guys but at some point the older guys are not going to want the 9 year old around & that will have an adverse effect on this boy. He should stay in Cubs & finish the program and move up with the rest of the boys his age.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

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Along a similar vein,

 

A year ago I had a den leader who wanted to include both of his sons in his den. He used that as a stipulation for volunteering to become a den leader. The boys were a year apart in age and in school year. He wanted the older boy to work on his Wolf along with his younger son (2nd and 3rd graders at the time). I told him that the third grader should be in the Bear program, regardless of his lack of previous Cub Scout experience. After awhile, he finally understood but wanted them in the same den regardless; one working on Wolf and one on Bear {den was primarily Wolfs (Wolves?)}. Although I highly recommended that he did not try to work both programs in the same den I believe there is really no rule against it. Possibly later as a Webelos den, rules may prevent non-Webelos in the den. Any comments?

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The requirements for Cub Scouts is based on age OR grade. Most packs I know of go by grade. LDS packs go strictly by age.

 

Tiger 7 years old or completed kindergarten

Wolf 8 years old or completed first grade

Bear 9 years old or completed second grade

Webelos 10 years old or completed third grade

 

Arrow of Light cannot be earned until 6 months AFTER turning 10 OR completing 4th grade.

 

My sons birthday is in July. Our school cut off date is the child must be 6 before or on September 1st the year he starts first grade.

So he was a 6 year old Tiger, 7 year old Wolf, 8 year old Bear and 9 year old Webelos.

 

I could have went by his age and he would have been 7 year old Tiger, 8 year old Wolf, 9 year old Bear and 10 year old Webelos. This would be the same for the boys his age that did kindergarten a year later or did it twice ( I know some of these boys).

 

The Cub Scout Leader book does a great job of explaining the flexibility of the program for boys who are held back a year in school. It also discusses what to do about boys with documented disabilities.

 

One great thing about Cubs is the flexibility of the program. An 9 year old third grader who is struggling in school may very well excel in Scouting as a BEAR (right where he should be).

 

Last year I had an 11 year old Webelos Scout that was in 5th grade but doing 1st grade level work. Webelos was just right for him. To place him on his school academic grade level (a Tiger) would have been terrible for him. He needed extra help with reading and writing, but he could understand what was going on. He loved being in Scouts. At the same time, he was not ready for Boy Scouts as an 11 year old. Our students move to middle school at the beginning of 6th grade. He fit in better with the Cubs because he saw them at school all day. Again, the wonderful flexibility of Cub Scouting!

 

The original post about a 9 year old 3rd grader someone is trying to sign up for Boy Scouts is amazing to me. Let me be blunt there is NO decision. The answer is NO! It doesnt matter if he has the piece of cloth with an arrow of light on it, he did not earn it. He has to wait until 6 months after he turns 10 or completes 4th grade. Sounds like the 6 months after 10 years old will come first. He must wait. He can visit meetings but he should not be part of the troop. Grandma can stay at home with him while his older brother goes camping with the troop. She doesnt have to go camping.

 

I would also be concerned about this Webelos Leader who thinks everything is just fine. What is this teaching the kids? We can bend the rules when we feel like it? While there is flexibility within Cub Scouting, there are a few hard and fast rules. The BSA has done a lot of research about ages and stages. They didnt just draw these ages out of a hat.

 

I get very irritated with adults who feel they and their children (grandchildren) are so special they dont have to follow the rules. Are you later going to give the younger boy a rank badge because his big brother earned it? Do they both get Eagle at the same time? Where does it stop????

 

Will someone give me hand getting off this soapbox?

 

Acco40, to address your example: the boys need to be in separate dens. The beauty of having all den meetings at the same time and place helps parents with more than one boy in Cubs.

 

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It is permissible to have a combined Wolf/Bear den. That's not uncommon for a new, small pack. You can also combine Webelos I and IIs in he same den. Tigers must be in a separate den and you cannot mix Wolf/Bears with Webelos.

 

But back to Glenn's problem, it sounds to me like it's time to call the district commissioner or executive. The problem here is the Webelos leader, and it's not the troop's responsibility to deal with this guy. To be honest, if all his Webelos are as screwed up as he is, you may not want them. (Just kidding, well sort of kidding, no actually I'm really mean it.)

 

The commissioners or the DE needs to try and salvage the other boys in the den and straighten the mess out. Unfortunately, I'm sure the Webelos leader is spinning everything that he's just trying to look out for his boys, and particularly these two brothers who are having such a hard time. His heart may be in the right place, but his head surely isn't.

 

The bottom line is there isn't a snowflake's chance that this kid's registration is going through the system, regardless what troop they go to -- especially if the DE is made aware of it. Even if the boy somehow gets registered, he's not covered by the insurance, the troop has no liability protection if something happens, etc., etc.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

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Hi Glenn

Seems like something is missing. I think the right action is obvious. One adult is forcing all the others to hesitate doing the right action. What is this power he holds over the committee? Do you need the Webelos or you don't get any new scouts? Were they already committed? Are you the only troop in town or are there others? It appears your committee knows what to do, why are they hesitating?

 

Barry

 

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Ed (evmori),

 

I realize it's the boys decision but this leader told us his boys are moving as a group (after voting on which one to join). I am not sure if all the boys agree with this or not.

 

To all others,

 

This will be our second year of 15+ first years. The truth of the matter is we do not NEED this den. However, the leader is actually an Eagle Scout, quite knowledgable, and very involved in Scouting. Therefore some committee members really want him to join our troop.

 

Something that I forgot to mention, is the Webelos leader called our council to ask about this. If the 9 year old registers in cub scouts (even without attending any den meetings), he will be covered by insurance so our troop liability is limited.

 

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Hi Glenn

I admire you troop working to improve the program with good adults.

 

Could you give us your list of positives and negitives in this situation?

 

First list advantages of getting this adult, then another list of without the him. Maybe the list will shine a different light on the needs of your program.

 

Good luck. I siad it yesterday in a different thread, scouting is great until the adults get involved.

 

Barry

 

 

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Glen,

You are confusing insurance coverages. A registered scout always has accident insurance. Allowing a nineyear old to participate in activities that he is not prepared to handle still leaves you wide open as far as your liability if he should be injured.

 

The fact that your Webelos Leader goofed up by not sticking to the membership requirements does not make the boy eligible for Boy Scouts. he was not eligible for Webelos. He will not be able to advance, and putting him in a troop before he is eligible may be a convenience for the grandmother but that is not what the troop is there for. Allowing such a young child in a troop is dangerous for the boy and detracts from the program for the rest of the scouts. Do not allow this woman to affect the scouts this way for her personal gain.

 

I assure you that you will regret not stopping her.

 

Bob White

 

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So you are saying your Troop would go along with a 3rd grade boy being registered as a Cub Scout, but wearing the uniform of, participating in the activities of, and being given (can't possibly be earned since he is not a registered BS) the rank badges of a Boy Scout?

 

If you do this, you had better hope that none of the other Boy Scouts or their families find out. IMHO it makes a mockery of the Boy Scout program and trivializes the work the other boys have done to earn their BS ranks.

 

If this happened in our Troop, my son & I would quickly find a new Troop.

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easy answer:

 

no.

 

now, you could allow him to be registered as a cub scout, but you'd find that he'd be unable to attend most things the boy scouts do, and that includes scout camp and many of the campouts events. there'd be no awards or badges that could be earned. I believe that as a cub scout he'd have to have the grandmother on all campouts. the cub scout insurance covers cub scout approved events, not boy scout approved events.

 

base your answer not only on the age, but on the program too and how you'd be doing a disservice to the troop, pack, and other boys for making an exception.

 

honestly, I wouldn't want that webelos leader anyways. he sounds like he's uninformed on the program.

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BW's point about insurance coverage is very important. Under the circumstances I would not rely on anything this Webelos leader said about any conversation he may have had on this subject. I am not saying he would lie, but we really don't know how he posed the questions. Further, a lot people at the council level get confused on these issues.

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Like I said before, You need to say thanks for your intrest, but here is the other troops available in the area. Don't allow them to damage your troop by doing this, cause thats what would happen. Does Grandmother understand the difference in programs? is she going to camp in Tent when your doing that? What about Canoeing or boating activities, Backpacking, Hiking, climbing, Camporee's, Klondikes, summer camp, and the list goes on and on. Cubs can not do 90% or the thinks Boy Scouts do.

 

You don't need tis guy, Eagle Scout or not. Besides, I would Question his judgement if a leader gave me an ultimatum like this, not exactly eagle scout standards.

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No. Far too young. 11-yearolds often have trouble with the transition to boy-led, a 9-yearold would be a distraction to the troop and potentially a danger.

 

Tell his grandma (who sounds like a great lady from here) that you will help her find him a age-matched cub group and let him continue as a cub scout. As far as "he's already done" the cub activities - so what? If they were fun the first time, they'll be fun again. If they were hard the first time, he'll have a much easier time the second. Either way he wins.

 

As far as the older boy, welcome him in your troop with open arms and to that end, help hook the family up with kind folks who will help with transportation and other such problems. The brothers will benefit from time apart as well; all too often in a single-parent and stressed situation, older siblings end up being de-facto parents for the younger ones, which is unfair to both sides. Big brother needs a time to just be a kid and not be looking out for little brother.

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