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Ok, Ed, let me get this straight. You want me to provide evidence that the "great flood" DIDN'T happen? I'm not sure exactly how I can provide proof to that something didn't happen. How about a total lack of physical evidence in the geological record of the Earth? You'd think something that big would have left a mark, don't you?


I also can't provide proof that the Easter Bunny doesn't exist. My bad, I guess.


And you've made my point by missing it entirely. You can't prove it, and I can't disprove it. That is the nature of faith.(This message has been edited by DanKroh)

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There is no geological evidence for the world-wide flood of Noah. If there had been a world-wide flood covering all of the land, the evidence for it would be easy to see. The fact that it supposedly occured only a few thousand years ago means that it would be even more obvious if it actually happened.


The historical evidence shows that the story of Noah is a Hebrew variation on an earlier Mesopotamian story - that of Giglamesh. The written records from other societies predate the record of the Bible. The story of Noah's flood does not hold up historically either.

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This appeared roughly 5 years ago on the CNN web site.


The first evidence that humans lived in an area now covered by the Black Sea -- perhaps inundated by the biblical flood -- has been found by a team of explorers.

"Artifacts at the site are clearly well preserved, with carved wooden beams, wooden branches and stone tools," lead researcher Robert Ballard said.

"We realize the broad significance the discovery has and we're going to do our best to learn more," Ballard said in a telephone interview Tuesday from his ship off the northern coast of Turkey, west of the community of Sinop.

Fredrik Hiebert of the University of Pennsylvania, the team's chief archaeologist, said the discovery "represents the first concrete evidence for occupation of the Black Sea coast prior to its flooding."

"This is a major discovery that will begin to rewrite the history of the cultures in this key area between Europe, Asia and the ancient Middle East," Hiebert said.

The remnants of human habitation were found in more than 300 feet of water about 12 miles off the coast of Turkey.

From freshwater lake to saltwater sea

Many ancient Middle Eastern cultures have legends of a great flood, including the Bible story of Noah.

Columbia University researchers William Ryan and Walter Pittman speculated in their 1997 book "Noah's Flood" that when the European glaciers melted, about 7,000 years ago, the Mediterranean Sea overflowed into what was then a smaller freshwater lake to create the Black Sea.

Last year Ballard found indications of an ancient coastline miles out from the current Black Sea coast. The new discovery provides evidence that people once lived in that now inundated region.

Ballard, a National Geographic Society explorer in residence, said he studied shells found along the ancient coastline and found two types. One group is an extinct type of freshwater shell, while the second is from saltwater shellfish.

The saltwater shells date from the present back 6,500 years, while the freshwater shells all date to 7,000 years ago and older.

"So we know that there was a sudden and dramatic change from a freshwater lake to a saltwater sea 7,000 years ago," he said Tuesday.

"And we know that as a result of that flood a vast amount of land went under water.

"And we now know that land was inhabited. What we don't know is who these people are, we don't know how broad their settlements were ... but we're expanding our studies to try to determine that."

Structures found in underwater river valley

Ballard said his team, using remote-controlled underwater vessels with cameras, located a former river valley beneath the sea, and in the valley was the collapsed structure. Remains include preserved wooden beams that were worked by hand.

The structure was "clearly built by humans," and was characteristic of stone-age structures built 7,000 years ago in the interior of Turkey, Ballard said. It contained a stone chisel and two other stone tools with holes drilled through them, he said.

Nothing has been removed from the site. "When you first find a site you don't just run in there and start picking up things," he said.

The group is now mapping the site and looking for other structures in the area.

"This is a work in progress," Ballard said. "It is critical to know the exact era of the people who lived there, and to that end we hope to recover artifacts and wood for carbon dating so we can figure out what sort of people lived there and the nature of their tools."

The discovery occurred within coastal waters of Turkey, whose Directorate of Monuments and Museums has a representative on the research vessel.


Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

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As I said above, archeologists generally agree that most legends and myths have a nugget of fact underneath layers and layers of retelling and exaggeration. This research is fascinating and it may shed light on a nugget of history that inspired a flood myth, but it does not "prove" the Noachian flood story as told in Genesis. Of course that should not stop you or anyone else from believing - that is why faith does not need proof.

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I am well aware of Ballard's findings. The Black Sea flooding is indeed impressive and could serve as a basis for flood stories from different cultures in that area. The geological evidence shows that the area of the Black Sea was inundated by a land dam breaking. I read the articles at the time. No mention of scientific evidence of fountains of the deep or 40 days and 40 nights of rain. These findings in no way coincide with a literal flood that covered all the earth.


Beyond that, it also doesn't fit the so-called biblical timeline.


Did Noah live in the region that is now the Black Sea. That doesn't seem to fit with the textual evidence within the Bible.


The flood may be part of some cultural memory passed down for countless generations, told and retold. It might have even been accepted by various cultures in Mesopotamia and among the Hebrews. Ballard's take would be that all of these people had heard of the great flood and each told different stories trying to explain the legend.


I don't know that this makes a lot of sense. Especially if you are trying to claim the stories of the Old Testament are historically accurate.


Instead, I think Ballard is a pretty good promoter. He understands how reporters are looking for a good hook to pull readers into their stories. He also understands how people are amazingly uncritical of any story that reports their religious view.

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Kangaroos Ed. Kangaroos prove that the story of Noah is a fable. Kangaroos can only be found on the Australian land mass. If the story of Noah (best told by Bill Cosby) is true and faithful to the facts, the kangaroo, like all animals, would have been killed in the great flood, save the few that Noah so nobly place in the ark. Then when Noah released the animals after the flood, they would have repopulated the earth including the kangaroo from the ark. But since Australia is an isolated land mass and kangaroo can't swim, they just couldn't get there. Plus, kangaroo are not mentioned in the Bible. Now you have to agree with me that had there been kangaroo bouncing around what is present day Iraq, they would get some mention in the Bible wouldn't they? Funny creatures they are. I did see a picture of kangaroo in a children's Bible story book once. But I doubt it was accurate to the details of the actual animal manifest that Noah had. Now if the story was told that Noah had, shortly after the flood started retreating, disembarked his strange menagerie of animals around the world then settled the ark on Mt. Ararat for the final disembarkment, it might hold water(pun intended). But alas it doesn't.

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I believe that there were local floods upon which flood stories were based, but not a literal worldwide flood as described in the bible.

Why not?

1.) Mt Everest is over 29,000 ft tall. Raining for 40 days and nights means a rate of 30 ft per hour (6" per minute). Granted, the bible indicates some of that water swelled up from below, but there is no evidence that there are places that could have provided this much water, nor any place that it could go. Even if half the water came miraculously from below, that is still 15 ft of rain per hour.

2.) The story indicates that the world was flooded for 2 years. Salt water species of marine life would not have been able to live in the fresh water (rain water) for that long. Or if by some special leaching action the rain water became salty, the fresh water marine life could not have lived.


This explanation is not meant to try and convince anyone else that they should see things as I do, but merely to show that there are logical agruments for someone not believing every bible story is literal fact. I have no doubt that someone else could see a way around these (Mt Everest was only 1000 ft tall at the time of the flood; God suspended the laws of nature and kept salt water salty and fresh water fresh for the two years that the world was under water).

I agree with Trevorum: Of course that should not stop anyone else from believing - that is why faith does not need proof.

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I don't know Gern. How did any non-swimming animal get concentrated in one area? I don't have the answers but dismissing something as myth simply because it seems impossible is very narrow thinking.


Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

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Ed, let me see if I can summarize the evidence in the article you posted.


1. Evidence has been found that there were once human civilizations under where the Black Sea exists today.


2. There is evidence that about 7000 years ago (and where does that fit in the Biblical timeline?), the Black Sea changed from freshwater to saltwater.


Ergo, the "Great Flood" happened?????


Sorry, but even my 6 year old could spot a logical fallacy that huge.


Ed, you say that I have not presented any proof "disproving" Biblical events. You are right, I have not. And I will not, for three reasons:


1. You are the one who made the claim of "fact". Therefore, the burden of proof is on you, not me. It is not up to me to educate your about your religion. I suggest you consult a learned person within your religion for such answers.


2. I am not in the habit of publically refuting other people's religious beliefs. To do so is disrespectful to their beliefs. And "respecting the beliefs of others" is not just an oath I take as a Scouter, but also one of the principle tenets of my church.


3. Biblical literalists have a "final" argument to dispute any physical evidence that does not support their Biblical-based view of the world. "God created that evidence to test us." No productive discussion can occur in the face of such circular logic, so I tend not to waste my time and energy.

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