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jkhny

GSA vs BSA

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Its Me said -

 

"The second is you are making the wrong compassion for unit size and organization a bay scout Patrol should be compared with a girls scout troop. A GS neighborhood is more like a BS Troop. So when you say troop sales compare favorably, you are comparing 50 boys with 8 girls."

 

Not exactly. A Girl Scout Neighborhood (or Service Unit) is more like a Boy Scout District. There are almost 400 girls in my (rather small) GS Service Unit. There are about 100 girls in the Catholic grammer school (averages about 11 per Troop) that charters both our Pack & Troop.

 

The bottom line is that GSUSA & BSA are two completely different programs. They are set up differently, do things differently, report things differently, and in general can NOT be compared effectively.

 

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Bob & Scoutnut

 

First re read Hops and Its Me posts to try to understand this topic better than you both obviously do. Secondly, my wife is an active GS leader and is involved with cookie sales on a district and regional level so yes I know the actual profits of the GS cookie sales compared to popcorn sales, so you both can quit acting so pompous and obnoxious because once again you are totally wrong. Lastly, the only ka-ka I read comes from your postings with so much incorrect information, as usual, on this and every other thread.

 

Oh by the way Bob, I don't really care if you are upset or not, never have or will.

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Scoutnut

 

The last line in your post, "the GSA and BSA are set up diffently that they can not be compared", is totally innacurate and if you would do a little research online you would see how easy it is to get facts about cookie vs popcorn sales and other organizational matters. Or you can be like Bob and just create stats out of thin air and try to intimidate others into thinking you are correct when in fact you are not.

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I have been an active member of GSUSA for 13 years & of BSA for 10 years. I was a paid professional at our local Girl Scout Council for 1 year.

 

There is no "district & regional" level for GS cookies. Every Council runs their own Cookie Program, in their own way. There is a paid professional at the GS council offices who is in charge of the council's product sales (which by the way include more than just cookies). Then you have a volunteer who coordinates the Cookie program at the Service Unit (neighborhood) level who works with all of the Troops in the Service Unit. Then there is the volunteer Cookie Program coordinator at the Troop level who works directly with the girls.

 

I have been a GS Cookie Program Coordinator at the Troop level for 11 years (5 years working with 2 Troops). I have also been the Cookie Program Coordinator for our Service Unit for 5 years. I have been Popcorn Kernal for our Pack for 8 years & for 2 years did both Pack & Troop.

 

The numbers I quoted were accurate & taken directly from reports from my Troop, Service Unit, Girl Scout Council & Cub Scout Pack.

 

I understand the topic perfectly well.

 

The profit realized from the sale of Girl Scout cookies, weather or not it is equal to, or more, or less than that of popcorn sales, has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE AMOUNT OF NATIONAL DUES charged by GSUSA. The national registration dues for Girl Scouts are the SAME as the national registration dues for Boy Scouts - $10.

 

A Boy Scout makes significantly more profit from the sale of the cheapest container of popcorn than a Girl Scout makes from 1 box of cookies. Both programs claim that approximately 70% of the cost of the product stays in the local council.

 

I am sure that you have found some financial information on line. However, you should NOT compare this information unless you know you are comparing EXACTLY the same things, & I would bet you are probably not.

 

The 2 programs ARE set up fundamentally differently & it really irritates me when incorrect information is stated as gospel. It tends to give people the wrong impression of BOTH programs.

 

 

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Scoutnut

First of all my wife is currently a GSA professional as well as a volunteer leader and has worked on cookie sales and other things on a council and at the regional level /state level for many years now so you will forgive me if I take her word over yours. Second we were not comparing a troop to a troop but the net profits from popcorn vs cookies on a National level and there the GSA wins hands down. I don't think you or Bob can provide any stats to the contrary on that ONE issue, unless you make them up like Bob tends to do.

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Flame me if you want but you have not put forth any profit margins on GS cookies where as Scoutnut said their unit makes .85 on a $4 sale. That is as he pointed out about 21.5% GP, where the lowest GP I have ever seen for the unit share of popcorn is 33% and as high as 40%.

 

Now the number of members in a troop of Girls Scouts compared to the number of scouts in a troop is irrelevant to this discussion. The scenario I offered was simply $1000 in cookie sales compared to an equal amoount sold in popcorn and which made more.

 

Have you evidence that the GSUSA offers a GP% greater than 33%?

 

Have you any evidence of the total popcorn sales nationwide for the BSA?

 

If not then your entire argument is dead in the water.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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The fact that this thread is in the Issues & Politics forum does not signal a green light for you people to slam one another. Consider your true intent, and what parts of the Scout Law you are ignoring before you post.

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I appreciate your frustration Fscouter, but if an intruder breaks into my home do not think me rude or ill mannered if I repel his efforts.

 

If I see someone attack a friend I am not being unfriendly for beating him back, I am being trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, brave, to protect and defend my friend. The Scout Oath we take is not there to protect those who attack you, it is there to remind us of our responsibility to defend those we honor, friends, family, country, God, and those in need of our help. jhnky is none of those things.

 

Standing up to the likes of jhnky, who has had nothing but ill to say of the BSA, is what being loyal and brave as a scout is about.

 

All I have asked is for the sources and data to support the statements that he bases his conclusions on.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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Now, now, let's not get personal....

 

I have raised what I - and others - believe are valid and serious issues. Most of those I know feel that it is pointless to even raise these concerns within Scouting. They have already "given up." I have higher hopes for BSA.

 

I have laid out MORE facts and figures than you are likely to get from BSA itself on most of the issues I have raised. Challenged, I have backed up my assertations.

 

"Appropriate" compensation levels have been a topic for regular discussion in non-profit circles under the "ethical and moral" behavior heading. Mr. Williams salary is and should be a topic of concern. It is clear that he is HIGHLY paid by any number of standards. His level and manner of compensation reflect issues that have been under criticism in the non-profit world. Having presented more facts than Bob appears to want - and facts that do not support HIS pov, he now ignores them.

 

BSA is by many standards SMALL and ill-run but its head is VERY well compensated. IS money best spent on executives in National or District Executives? That is a valid question. Feel free to expres your opinion and explain your logic.

 

Girl Scouts may not be a perfect comparison but the numbers do provide numbers for a starting point in discussions. Yet there ahs been no real focus on the numbers.

 

 

I believe that the behavior shown towards my posts makes my case that BSA needs reform. BSA - and its staunchest defenders - do not want to refute facts. IF unable to refute a fact, attack or cast aspersions on the source. They do not want any questioning (some would have ANY questioner silenced - which BSA itself has done). They prefer that things NOT be open and transparent. Volunteers are supposed to be mindlessly obedient. BSA has made great efforts to push out those who question what occurs. Why won't it answer our questions? Where is the accountability?

 

I have laid out a premise -

 

There are serious problems in BSA - worse locally in some places than others. However There are clear faillures in National leadership that have allowed local problems to exist and grow - and set a tone and corporate culture inappropriate for all Scouting claims to represent. There are clear warning signs indicative of problems:

 

Overpaid executives, decling membership, faked "success," unresponsive and even autocratic and incompetent leadership. A focus on covering up problems instead of preventing fixing them.

 

Instead of proving the individual assertions wrong - the argument is that these are minor, not representative, ANY organization has problems, etc. Clear black and white issues are ignored. A Scout is trustworthy. He does not lie.

 

Should a paid staffer lie about membership numbers - for ANY reason? If a volunteer can be removed for "misrepresentation" why not a paid staffer who should be expected to set an example? If they have done so - why haven't they been removed? Just why is Ronnie Holmes still employed by BSA?

 

If volunteers do vote down candidates for an Executive Board, why arent their wishes respected and bylaws followed?

 

Should BSA and its paid professionals have to follow the Scout law and this organization's own rules, regulations and procedures?

What should the consequences be for not doing so?

 

SHOULD an organization whose mission is instilling "moral and ethical" behavior in boys tolerate ANY failures to show such behavior by its own leadership?

 

 

 

Scouting is something that I care deeply about. I would not waste my time and effort raising these issues otherwise. I cannot explain to my youngest son why the place he waited his life to go to for camp is no longer open. I have NO justification for why the place I and my oldest son learned lifesaving is now shutterred and up for sale. I cannot explain why our District Pinewood Derby runoff was such a fiasco. We have avoided other events to prevent such disappointment. Scouting here is a mess and the reason is clear. We all know why. The consensus is clear but we can do nothing about it. Events elsewhere confirm the impossibility of real change. Paid staff treat BSA like a personal feifdom and see NO reason to be accountable or transparent to the volunteer members of BSA.

 

Scouting here IS FAILING. THAT is a fact. The fact that this situation can exist in even ONE Council (though it also exists in others) shows a failure of National leadership. You do not leave failing, unethical leadership in place if you want Scouting to survive or mean anything.

 

Mindlessly defending words often shows clear ignorance of their meaning.

 

Agree or disagree - it is your right. It is your right to ignore me as well.

 

 

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Toss profit margins out the window. Since there is a great disparity in product price, profit margins have no bearing. I think the real issue is what do you get for your money. The quality of GS cookies & BS popcorn are both good. The difference is the cost. And the price of Boy Scout popcorn is not thrifty!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

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"Scoutnut

First of all my wife is currently a GSA professional as well as a volunteer leader and has worked on cookie sales and other things on a council and at the regional level /state level for many years now so you will forgive me if I take her word over yours. Second we were not comparing a troop to a troop but the net profits from popcorn vs cookies on a National level and there the GSA wins hands down. I don't think you or Bob can provide any stats to the contrary on that ONE issue, unless you make them up like Bob tends to do."

 

 

Backpacker, you may want to learn a little bit more about what your wife does. As has been stated before, the Girl Scouts do NOT use "GSA" like the Boy Scouts use "BSA". Instead, they use "GSUSA"

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I am well aware of the correct acronym Hops and don't need my typo to be corrected by you. I am also positive my knowledge about Girl Scouts far exceeds your own.

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jkhny.....I think your original intent has been lost on popcorn vs. cookies, BSA vs GSA (GSUSA), 'my' facts vs. 'your' facts. I have lost a lot of respect for some of the senior members over their wailing on these trivial matters. Popcorn is good, cookies are good, BSA & GSUSA both have good but different programs, 'facts' (opinions) are like rear-ends everyone has one and they all stink except mine!

 

I have felt the same fustration as you. The council in my area is adequate. There are a lot of areas that can use improvement. However, I am not at this time in a capacity that can adequatley affect change; so I watch and learn what is going on. I have asked questions of our district FOS chair as to what my money would be used for..."district stuff like training" was the answer.

 

Some questions I had, if training is paid for the FOS why are we charged $10 to be trained for a volunteer position?

 

Answer: 'we have to pay for materials, meeting site, snacks, etc.'

 

I have been involved in training and know that instructors are volunteers, materials (copies) are not that expensive, meeting site is usually donated, and the snacks are cheap.

 

After asking these and some other serious, well thought out questions I could tell I was heading where no one should be or wanted to be going. Kinda like asking Masons about their secret stuff.(now I'll have the mason scouters on me)

 

I would like to know where my money goes. I do not contribute money to organizations that cannot/will not share that info with me. I am very selective in my donations. I also do not donate to FOS for that reason. I make my contributions directly to my pack....I at least know where that money is being used!

 

Now, all that being said, I believe the soul of scouting is lost much above the unit level. I started a pack not to become part of my district or council, but to deliver to the boys the ideals of scouting....the way LBP meant it.

 

Personally I agree that as scouters both volunteer and professional we should be open and held to a higher sandard than others. We should all strive to live and even attain the basic tenets of the scout law. We should all strive to 'Do My Best'. I also know that as human beings that we will fail in that. I hope, for the most part, unintentionally but know that some will choose to make a mockery of what we stand for as a brotherhood of scouters from within our ranks. I cannot control them but can only deliver the best possible program to MY boys. I have chosen to remain 'ignorant' to the problems I see and focus instead on the boys.

 

IMHO, scoutings future hope lies in teaching its future leaders something its current ones may have failed to grasp...that we mean all that stuff about being honest, loyal, thrifty, etc.

 

k

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