The Ten Commandments Can Stay On Public Lands!

[evmori 11]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

 

Declaration of Independence

[gavvin 11]

We can trade quotes all day in an effort to support our pet theories that the founding fathers would/would not have supported the SCOTUS rulings and that our nation is/was a Christian nation and that the 10 Commandments are the basis for our laws.

 

 

 

 

"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion"

-- George Washington (American commander in chief of the colonial armies in the American Revolution (1775-83) and subsequently 1st US President (1789-97), 1732-1799)

 

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"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries."

-- James Madison (American 4th US President (1809-17), and one of the founding fathers of his country. 1751-1836)

 

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Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

 

Thomas Jefferson - Autobiography (1821), in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

 

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"Nothwithstanding the general progress made within the two last centuries in favour of this branch of liberty, & the full establishment of it, in some parts of our Country, there remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Gov' & Religion neither can be duly supported: Such indeed is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both the parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded agst.. And in a Gov' of opinion, like ours, the only effectual guard must be found in the soundness and stability of the general opinion on the subject. Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Gov will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together"

 

[James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, The Writings of James Madison, Gaillard Hunt]

 

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"Religious factions will go on imposing their will on others unless the decent people connected to them recognize that religion has no place in public policy. They must learn to make their views known without trying to make their views the only alternatives." --- Barry Goldwater

 

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"There are two visions of America. One precedes our founding fathers and finds its roots in the harshness of our puritan past. It is very suspicious of freedom, uncomfortable with diversity, hostile to science, unfriendly to reason, contemptuous of personal autonomy. It sees America as a religious nation. It views patriotism as allegiance to God. It secretly adores coercion and conformity. Despite our constitution, despite the legacy of the Enlightenment, it appeals to millions of Americans and threatens our freedom.

 

The other vision finds its roots in the spirit of our founding revolution and in the leaders of this nation who embraced the age of reason. It loves freedom, encourages diversity, embraces science and affirms the dignity and rights of every individual. It sees America as a moral nation, neither completely religious nor completely secular. It defines patriotism as love of country and of the people who make it strong. It defends all citizens against unjust coercion and irrational conformity.

 

This second vision is our vision. It is the vision of a free society. We must be bold enough to proclaim it and strong enough to defend it against all its enemies." - Rabbi Sherwin Wine

 

***

 

"Nothwithstanding the general progress made within the two last centuries in favour of this branch of liberty, & the full establishment of it, in some parts of our Country, there remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Gov' & Religion neither can be duly supported: Such indeed is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both the parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded agst.. And in a Gov' of opinion, like ours, the only effectual guard must be found in the soundness and stability of the general opinion on the subject. Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Gov will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together" [James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, The Writings of James Madison, Gaillard Hunt]

 

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"Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church, and the private school, supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and state forever separate." -- Ulysses S. Grant

 

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"...several of the first presidents, including Jefferson and Madison, generally refused to issue public prayers, despite importunings to do so. Under pressure, Madison relented in the War Of 1812, but held to his belief that chaplains shouldn't be appointed to the military or be allowed to open Congress." [Richard Shenkman, I Love Paul Revere, Whether He Rode Or Not]

 

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"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it"

 

John Adams quotes (American 2nd US President (1797-1801), 1735-1826)

 

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Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

 

Thomas Jefferson - Letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper (February 10, 1814)

[Hunt 11]

I think what these battling quotations reveals is that there has always been difference of opinion over how separate church and state should be. I feel confident that if you could resurrect the Founding Fathers, some of them would think that we've gone too far in separating, and others would think we haven't gone far enough. (Several of them, including Jefferson and probably Franklin, would be dismayed that Christianity still existed after two centuries of progress). But I have to agree with the idea that the point of view that prevailed in the Constitution--which is what really counts--is that there should be significant separation, and this is the view that the Supreme Court has followed over the years.

[SR540Beaver 116]

This is most likely my last post in this particular thread. Let me state for the record, I am a born again evangelical Christian and contrary to Rooster's opinion, I consider myself conservative. I've attended Southern Baptist churches since I was about 2 weeks old and have a degree in Religion from a Southern Baptist university and a year's work towards a masters in Religious Education. I've been an Assistant Youth Minister, Sunday School teacher, Deacon and even preached a revival in an overseas crusade. I know what I believe and why I believe it. I am secure in my faith. My relationship is with God thru Jesus Christ my Savior. It is not dependent on my government and it's recognition of my Christian religion. In fact, I really don't want my government involved with my faith. It does not bother me if my son's school does not have a morning prayer. They do have a moment of silence where the kids can pray if they so choose. I'm fine with that. But I'd be fine if they didn't as well. It does not matter to me if they say "under God" in the pledge or not. They do and I'm fine with it. But it wouldn't bother me if they didn't. It doesn't bother me if they don't post the ten commandments in his school or in courthouses. If thy did, it wouldn't bother me either. The reason that it doesn't matter to me is because I am a dad and part of my responsibility is to be the spiritual head of my house. My job and the job of my church is to instruct my family in the beliefs of our faith and to lead by example. I don't want or expect my son's school or our government to do that for me. I won't abdicate that task to them. It just isn't their place. Heck, look at all the denominations and their different interpretations of scripture. Some believe you can fall from grace while some believe once saved, always saved. Some believe that it is wrong to have musical instruments while singing. Some believe they are the only ones going to heaven. Some believe in immersion baptism while others sprinkle. The list goes on and on. If we Christians can't even agree on basic tenets, why would we want our government dabbling in it on our behalf? The bottom line is that even if the government and it's various entities don't allow prayer in school, the 10 commandments in courthouses, etc., it won't make one iota of difference to the practice of my faith or the religious instruction of my family. It just doesn't matter. I want the governemnt to do their job of making fair and just laws, dispensing justice, providing for our common defense and providing infrastructure for our way of life. Let them do their job and I'll do mine.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

In this and other forums I have come to realize that for every quote you can find on the Internet in which Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Madison etc. etc. say something that seems to go one way on religion and government, you can find another quote by someone in the same group (and often by the same person) that goes the other way. In my reading it seems that Washington and Jefferson in particular are two people whose public pronouncements on the subject of religion and government give a very different impression than some of the statements found in their private letters and papers.

 

Here is an article that brings together a number of sources on the subject, and since it is entitled "Our Godless Constitution" you can tell which perspective it takes:

 

http://tinyurl.com/cn2ye

 

This is the perspective that I believe is best supported by history. The article discusses the sort of "double personality" that Jefferson, Franklin, Adams and others had to have in order to remain successful in public affairs. And even in public, to the extent that the Founding Fathers and Framers of the Constitution did speak of God's role in the new nation, it was usually in the sort of vague, generic, mysterious "deist" sense of the "Creator" or "Author" or "Divine Providence" as opposed to any particular organized religion's name for God or conception of God. As gavvin points out in one his quotations, they could have enshrined a particular name for God in various documents but chose not to do so. Instead, as the article that I linked-to points out, one of our earliest treaties states "the Government of the United States...is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

 

As an aside, SR540Beaver, another great post. It is a perspective not often seen in this forum.

[Rooster7 11]

As to the so-called quotation battle, I see it as being mostly one-sided. Try to follow these basic considerations:

 

1) Leave out quotes from history books, whose authors are merely expressing their personal opinions about history as opposed to recording it.

2) Drop the quotes from 20th century politicians, who like the aforementioned authors, are just providing an opinion and/or serving their own purposes.

3) Put all quotes from our founding fathers in context. Dont accept one line quotes at face value. Obtain some background.

 

Im not going to join the battle of quotes. I do ask that you examine the quotes already provided by others, take note of their source, put them in context (that may require some work), and draw your own conclusions. In other words, if you going to examine history fairly, then do just that NOT ALL QUOTES WERE CREATED EQUAL.

 

Hunt,

 

The Constitution says that the federal government shall establish no religion. What else do you think it says about the church?

 

Jeffersons letter was written to a Baptist minister, with the intent, to reassure the minister that the state would never be allowed to direct the internal affairs of the church. It was not meant as a declaration that the church (i.e., people of faith) shall never have any influence over the state.

 

Some folks like to interpret these as mutually inclusive propositions. They are not. It is completely within the realm of reason for persons of faith to seek the creation of laws which are rooted in faith-based values. If the majority of voters and/or their elected representatives can be persuaded to vote for such laws, the government should respect the collective will of the people. These laws would in fact represent the morality or values of the majority. Where those values come from, should be irrelevant. It is not within the realm of reason for the government to abolish laws or to ignore the will of the people, because it can be argued that the impetus for such laws was/is derived from faith-based values. This is religious bigotry. The state is trampling on the rights of religious persons by ignoring their values.

 

SR540Beaver,

 

I am not sure why my name was brought into your post, but please be more direct if you want to take issue with anything I may have said to you or others concerning this topic.

 

As for the United States government doing their job - as a citizen, I have a vested interest in the moral foundation from which our government operates. All laws are based on a moral premise. And all morality comes from God. If we truly want to remove all evidence of God from our government, then we should simply abolish all laws, and do as we please.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[SR540Beaver 116]

Rooster,

 

Too many political threads. I mixed my apples and oranges. In the Flag Burning thread you said to me, "Spoken like a true liberal." I thought the comment had been made in this thread. Sorry. Still, my point was factual that you see me as a liberal.

[Rooster7 11]

I guess that comment is still smartingeh? Okay, if were going to be factual. Spoken like a true liberal doesnt necessarily mean one is a liberal. If it makes you feel any better, I probably didnt eat my bran that morning. It was somewhat of a knee-jerk reaction. Still, I dont think its fair to characterize a viewpoint that you disagree with, as posturingeven if the people presenting the said viewpoint happen to be politicians. But thats an explanation, not an attempt to derail this particular thread. Peace.

[GernBlansten 10]

To me the only reason to support public displays of the 10 commandments (or any other religous symbols) is to push particular religous values on the general public.

Clearly the faithful do not need this reaffirmation of values, they have plenty of other venues to gain that. It is targeted to the unfaithful, to, in another words, rub their noses in it. Do it in your home, your church, on the bumper of your car, but not in my courthouse or state house.

 

Besides, as said earlier,

Only three of the commandments are part of our legal system. The same three are almost universally shared by every culture in the world. Even the most hedonistic.