So What Would You Do?

[Hunt 11]

"Simply, If there is a "perfect" God then there is no free will."

 

The fallacy in this argument--or rather the tautology--is in your apparent definition of the word "perfect." You seen to think that a "perfect" God must have perfect foreknowledge of all future events. I don't agree. What you're really arguing, I think, is that there is no difference between God knowing in advance all details of the future and preordaining all details of the future--and that if this is the case, free will is illusory. OK, I can see that argument, and it is a problem for those who want to believe both in free will and perfect foreknowledge. But it's necessary to believe in the perfect foreknowledge to believe in a perfect God, or even to believe in the God of the Bible--who is repeatedly depicted as changing his mind, and is clearly depicted as reacting to events that are contrary to his will. Let me also add that, in my opinion, that unless you believe in God, it's hard to believe in "free will" at all, because you're pretty much stuck with a deterministic universe.

[Trevorum 24]

Fuzzy said, "Each religion generally casts all of the others into outer darkness because ultimate truth is thought to be at a premium.".

 

I disagree. Many religions do this, but not all. This is one one the reasons I find Unitarian Universalism personally fulfilling. We believe there are many paths to spiritual enlightenment. As I told Rooster once, "Your path is as right for you as mine is for me". (He didn't believe me.)

 

Diversity without Division.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Trevorum says:

 

Fuzzy said, "Each religion generally casts all of the others into outer darkness because ultimate truth is thought to be at a premium.".

 

I disagree. Many religions do this, but not all. This is one one the reasons I find Unitarian Universalism personally fulfilling. We believe there are many paths to spiritual enlightenment. As I told Rooster once, "Your path is as right for you as mine is for me". (He didn't believe me.)

 

Diversity without Division.

 

Well then, I assume you find it disturbing (as I do) that the BSA has declared the UU's to be "religia non grata." (I made that first part up, I guess it is what happens when a religion, rather than a "persona," is declared "persona non grata." Who ever said Latin is a dead language?)

 

Some might say, no no no, UU's are welcome in the BSA. Well sure, the boys and their registration fees are allowed in, as long as they profess a belief in a higher power (as some UU's do not.) I wouldn't say they are exactly welcome when the BSA's attitude toward them is, well, when we say the BSA is absolutely nonsectarian, that doesn't include YOUR beliefs. I'd say the UU's are second-class (not the rank) citizens in the BSA, except that isn't really true. The BSA's rejection of the UU religious award and the apparent ban on UU churches being CO's really makes the UU's a third class religion. The second-class religions are those to which the BSA says, your religious beliefs regarding acceptance of gays are not welcome here, but you nevertheless do have an approved religious award and you can be a CO. This second-class group would include Reform Jews, many Episcopalians (like my future son-in-law's church, apparently the deacon or whatever the number-2 guy's title is, is openly gay), United Church of Christ, and various members of various other religions, denominations, non-organized beliefs (Deism), etc.

[DugNevius 10]

well hunt, isnt the definition of Perfect:

-Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind.

-Being without defect or blemish: a perfect specimen.

-Thoroughly skilled or talented in a certain field or area; proficient.

 

As i stated before:

 

If God is perfect his knowledge is perfect

If His knowledge is perfect then He knows everything

If He knows everything then he knows exactly what i will do.

If He knows what i will do i will not do anything but what He knows i will do.

 

A perfect God HAS to know exactly what will happen in the future. If God does not know exactly what is to happen forever and ever then there is a limitation in his knowledge and therefore is imperfect.

 

God either knows everything that will ever happen, or he is not perfect. It cant be both.

[Bob White 20]

A myth being continued by some posters is that the BSA denies membership to individuals based on their religious beliefs. That simply is not true. In the case of the UU's they are not banned from membership. Their youth and adults may join the BSA (and yes they are required to pay membership the same as every other member. I have no idea why that was even mentioned.)

 

The UU is not treated as a third class religion. (and I am not sure where to find the requirements that affect the "class" of a religion in the BSA). The UU has the right to worship as they please and to hold whatever belief they choose. The problem is that the UU said that if they were a CO that they would knowingly violate the BSA membership policies.

 

While the UU has the right to determine their standards, the BSA has the right to determine their own. By what authority does the UU get to violate the BSA policies? Members of the UU can still earn their religious award. They can still recieve their religious award, and the UU has the authority to set whatever requirements thay choose for their award.

 

The BSA has authority over the BSA uniform and have the sole authority to determine what awards can be worn on it. The UU knowingly placed language in the requirements that were contrary to the values of the BSA. So the BSA prohibeted the display of that award on the BSA uniform.

 

The UU as a right to whatever decision they wish to make regarding the UU. They do not have the authority to determine the policies of the BSA.

 

 

[Hunt 11]

"God either knows everything that will ever happen, or he is not perfect."

 

You only say this because you DEFINE perfect as having perfect knowledge of the future. There is no logical reason to define perfection in this way.

 

In my opinion, it is not a flaw or limitation for God not to fully know the future, because the future hasn't happened yet. Indeed, if God created beings with true free will, arguably God can't fully know the future. Thus, because it would be logically impossible for God to fully know the future, it could hardly be an imperfection in his nature if he doesn't. It would be like saying, "God is imperfect because he can't create a rock too heavy for him to lift."

[Trevorum 24]

NJ, I appreciate the empathy. Really. But I have never been made to feel like a 3rd (or 2nd) class Scouter (except perhaps by those on either end of the extremist spectrum - from Rooster on the right to Kudu on the left - who for different reasons think I and other UUs should be BSA pariahs because of our faith).

 

While some people would like us to be casualties of the culture wars, I and other UUs like me have continued to go on campouts, earn badges, participate in service projects, and attend Eagle CoHs. The people in my troop know that I do not define God in the same way as do they. That's not a problem. I am respectful of their beliefs and they are respectful of mine. The people in my troop know that I think sexual orientation is irrelevant to Scouting. We may disagree but it's not an issue that we let interfere with our program.

 

As Bob points out, UUs have always been welcome as members. There is really no debate about that. For a while however, there was an absence at the top which created a perception (to some) of an official policy of intolerance towards UUs. But, for the last several years, UUs have been attending the BSA Religious Relationships subcommittee meetings. I have found, without exception, all of those folks to be welcoming and tolerant. They are genuinely glad, as we are, that UUs are again actively participating at this highest level.

 

Bob, perhaps you missed (or have forgotten) the recent thread about the reinstatement of a religious award for UU Boy Scouts. Actually, there are two awards. As you have noted, the one sponsored by the official church organization is not recognized by BSA for uniform wear. The newer award is sponsored by an independent organization of UU Scouters and has been approved by BSA for uniform wear.

[tortdog 10]

>Indeed, if God created beings with true free will, arguably God can't fully know the future.

 

I disagree. I, with my imperfect knowledge, know that if I offer a chocolate ice cream cone to my daughter that she will accept the offer and eat it. Knowing that my daughter will do this does not rob her of her free agency.

 

God's knowledge that I will fail in a certain test (or succeed) does not rob me of my free agency. It just means that God has perfect knowledge of who I am and how I will respond to life's challenges.

 

I think you are confusing God ability with law. While God can arguably do anything, because He is perfect He cannot break any law. Thus your dilemna of a rock too heavy for God to lift is more an interesting puzzle than a serious philosophical debate.

[evmori 11]

Why is everyone trying to do something you can't do - humanize God! God is not a person! God created us. We didn't create him. You can't try to understand God in human terms!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[tortdog 10]

Well, I disagree. I believe that God is literally our father. But that might get us into a whole area that we don't want to go...i.e., who is God?

 

I think what almost anyone will agree is that God is perfect and all-knowing.

[DugNevius 10]

Hunt- It is impossible for something to have limitations or flaws and be perfect. It is the very definition of perfect, not simply my interpretation if the word. Lacking nothing essential. Not knowing what you will do is a limitation to God's knowledge. Therefore he is imperfect if this be the case.

 

Show an example of something being perfect, but lacking something.

 

Tortdog- If your daughter will always take the ice cream then she will never not take the ice cream. 100% of the time she will take the ice cream. Choice depends on the existance of alternatives. If 100% of the time she will take the ice cream then there is no other laternative then to take it. Thus, there is no choice in the matter. By definition of choice there must be alternatives.

 

If yu possessed perfect knowledge, as some believe God does, then yu know what she will do. If she were to turn down the ice cream despite what yu thought then you would be wrong. If you are wrong then your knoweldge is not perfect.

 

Ed- If we can not begin to understand God in human terms then how can we humans begin to judge other humans based on God and morality based on our ignorant and vastly limited knowlegde of God? How can we say "God thinks this _________" if we can not begin to undertsnad anything of what God thinks? If we are ignorant in understanding God, can it not be true that nothing can be solidly defined as right or wrong?

[tortdog 10]

>If your daughter will always take the ice cream then she will never not take the ice cream. 100% of the time she will take the ice cream.

 

No. Based on the circumstances at hand she either will or will not take the ice cream. She may have just eaten a banana split when the cone is offered. At that point, she would not take the ice cream from me and my knowledge of that choice would not deprive her of her freedom.

 

>Choice depends on the existance of alternatives. If 100% of the time she will take the ice cream then there is no other laternative then to take it. Thus, there is no choice in the matter. By definition of choice there must be alternatives.

 

As mentioned, my example does not mean there was no other alternative. Rather, my knowledge consisted of knowledge of what she would do in that circumstance. If I, being imperfect, am able to know beforehand what my daughter will do in certain circumstances (what choices she would take), why would not God, being perfect, know better than I? How does that knowledge rob man of his choice?

[DugNevius 10]

"Based on the circumstances at hand she either will or will not take the ice cream. She may have just eaten a banana split when the cone is offered. At that point, she would not take the ice cream from me and my knowledge of that choice would not deprive her of her freedom."

 

Yes, because you are not God possessing perfect knowledge. You are self described imperfect. However had you possessed Gods perfect Knoweldge you would know that she had just eaten ice cream and would turn you down.

 

"As mentioned, my example does not mean there was no other alternative. Rather, my knowledge consisted of knowledge of what she would do in that circumstance. If I, being imperfect, am able to know beforehand what my daughter will do in certain circumstances (what choices she would take), why would not God, being perfect, know better than I? How does that knowledge rob man of his choice?"

 

Will God know what choice you will make? If he does there is no limitation to his knowledge. Perfect Knowledge.

 

Let me ask you this: If God knows that your daughter will eat the ice cream, is she NOT going to eat the ice cream, was God right?

 

In what way can someone be wrong but still be 100% right?

 

 

[tortdog 10]

>If God knows that your daughter will eat the ice cream, is she NOT going to eat the ice cream, was God right?

 

I don't understand that question.

 

>In what way can someone be wrong but still be 100% right?

 

Wrong right so if someone is wrong they cannot be 1% right, let alone 100%.

[DugNevius 10]

If God knows what your daughter will do, eat or not eat, and she doesnt do exactly what he forsaw, was he 100% right?

 

Things can be less than 100% correct. However, if something is perfect, by definition, then it must always be 100% correct.