Co-ed OA?

[EagleInKY 14]

AZ - I think you may be "double clicking" the "Submit Your Message" button.

[Foxwhisker8 10]

Trust me this does relate...

 

I've been a volunteer scouter for 17+ years. I grew up in scouting, all my family was in scouting. I bought my son's cub scout uniform at a children's used clothing sale when he was 3(yo) in hopes he would want to be in scouting. At six he ran through the front door and yelled "Mom! The scouts are going to be at the school tonight! Can we go?" I don't think I had ever been so happy! You see, I'm a single parent and I knew he needed strong adult male role models. That night he met his cubmaster and became a Tiger. He later became an Eagle Scout. Those two nights, watching him as a 6 yo to cubmaster, and watching him years later speak at his Eagle Court of Honor were the two best, most proudest nights of my life! But I jumped too far forward...

 

My son's cubmaster knew I was an a camper/hiker and asked me to be one of his assistant cubmasters. I thought "sure, ok". I felt I would get involved but knew this needed to be my sons experience not mine. Soon our cubmaster was deployed to Gulf Storm and I became the cubmaster. Well you know how it is in cubscouting, once people see you volunteer, you just keep getting asked... day camp, training team, roundtable, cub family camping, etc. I knew people from all over the council and soon my son became known as "my" son and not for himself. Was this what I wanted my son to get into scouting for? No.

 

When he crossed over to a troop, it wasn't to the one affiliated with the pack and people were upset that "I" wasn't staying with the home team. I pointed out scouting is my sons program not mine. Notice I said "he" crossed, adults don't cross. After about a year in scouting he decided he wanted to go into the OA if he was nominated. Our troop committee informed me I nominated for OA if I wanted it, but I knew my son needed to go in first so I declined. He didn't make the vote that year but did the next, again I was nominated for OA and again I declined. Not because I didn't want to be in the OA, but because my son needed to find his niche. During his first year in OA he found out I had declined OA twice. He asked me about that and I told him I just wasn't ready. That year he started in ceremonies and before the next year he told me "Mom, if you're nominated to OA again, please consider joining". I was nominated again and this time accepted. My son "tapped" me out while I stood looking him eye to eye. He gave stern instructions to go to the fire and when I got there, I looked up and saw the comet Hale Bopp in the sky. What a defining moment for me, a monumental passing.... I became known as "his" mom. After all its only right.

 

Someone once asked me why it took so long for me to get to the OA and I jokingly said "Hey, I'm already in the boys club, do I really need a key to the men's room?" We laughed but its kind of true. A couple of years ago our scoutmaster decided it was time for him to step aside (burn out I think its called) and I was voted in by committee to be the new scoutmaster. It took me a good full year to get use to the title. I don't feel that I'm preventing a man from leading cause it was they who voted me in. I don't feel that I'm an example of "hey look at me I'm a female scoutmaster," and resent it immensely when other women try to pigeon hole me in that mode. What I do feel good about is the parents and committee of our troop have confidence in me to do a good job helping their sons become confident leaders.

 

I love Boy Scouting and I love the Order of the Arrow! Personally I don't think girls belong in boy scouting or OA... nor do I believe some adults, male or female, belong in boy scouting. Boys have a hard enough time trying to figure out who they are without having the distraction of a girl, or having mom or dad more intent on "their" scouting careers.

 

To understand the need for boy scouting for boys you really have to live by the oath and law. You have to believe it and that belief only comes with training and time. I like being scoutmaster and being on the cook team, both positions are behind the scenes where adults in scouting should be.

 

Cheerfully,

Foxwhisker8

[scoutldr 726]

OGE said, "I am not sure about your area, but the Venture Program struggles to establish its own identity and having Ventures in the OA only blurs the line more. Of course dual registered boys can be members, in their troop."

 

So I take this to mean that Arrowmen who join a Venture Crew, but do not maintain dual registration, are no longer members of the OA and should no longer participate?

 

 

[Kahuna 172]

As far as I am aware (and I find out more every day ) Ventures who are in OA can stay in OA. I know that in Florida there are many non dual registered Ventures who spend a lot of time with OA functions. In Sea Scouting, one of the attractions of the program is that they stay in OA without being involved in the troop.

[AZScouter 10]

I never intended this to be a discussion of co-ed scouting in general, but since foxwhisker opened the door... Nearly every country in the world has co-ed scouting. Mexico, Canada, England, Australia, Germany, the list goes on. Do you know who doesn't? Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan... puts us in good company, no?

 

We've made great strides and one day we will be co-ed, I'm fairly sure of that. Jamboree is not a "Boy Scout" event, there were many young ladies in attendance including two from our council (my daughter is one). I agree the OA is a Boy Scout program and can accept that until the program becomes co-ed girls will not be able to be tapped out.

 

Fox, you should really read what you posted, I hope you are not as closed minded and elitist as you sound. If you really feel women should not be allowed, then you should resign and allow a man to take over. I hope I have your attention now. The point is our program is what is today because of the contributions of all Scouters, not just the males. In our council half of our professionals are female and many volunteers in key positions are female and are providing invaluable service. Imagine is they could not make their contributions because of their gender.

 

For many years I have read about the "Scouting Family"; you see it referred to in Boy's Life and Scouting as well as other literature. Well,I've been involved in the BSA for thirty years, my wife for seventeen and we've never been a "Scouting Family" until two years ago.

 

Thankfully the Venturing program is allowing girls to be a part of the BSA. My daughter has staffed at our local camp the last two years, at the rifle range as a Certified Range Safety Officer. She staffed Jambo in the Archery action center and plans to attend World Jambo. She earned her Gold Award and recently became our Councils first female Silver Awardee. My younger daughters look foward to their chance.

 

I do find it interesting to know that some people consider girls a distraction (especially a woman). I thought that by now we were beyond those beliefs. One of the arguements used when woman were first allowed to be Scoutmasters was , "how can a woman teach a boy to become a young man?". Thankfully the BSA didn't listen to those pundits and did the right thing by allowing women to hold those positions. Maybe some day they will do the right thing and allow girls to be Cubs and Boy Scouts.

 

One thing some people overlook is that the Chartered Organization can choose whether their units are co-ed. The LDS Church has Venturing Crews but not co-ed Venturing Crews. I know of an all girl Venturing Crew. So COs could still have segregated units while others could have co-ed units.

 

Another point to clafify is a Venturer can only be a member of the OA if he was elected prior to joining a Crew or is dual registered. There is a lot that is unclear. The Insignia Control Guide says Sea Scouts cannot wear an OA flap on their uniforms?

[stlscouter 10]

I have seen many, many, many women in the BSA and in the OA in particular however, (and there is always a however) when it comes to the ceremonial teams...based on "American Indian" traditions etc (I know some present day tribes have women leaders)but..

[Rooster7 11]

Foxwhisker8,

 

I appreciate your story and understand your point of view. Just to let you know...not everyone on this forum thinks you're an elitist. I think realist might be more appropriate. I think the original intent behind the program was for boys to be mentored into men, by men. It made sense back then. It makes sense today. However, I am grateful for the many women who have stepped up to fill the void left by uninvolved dads.

[arrowman168 10]

The dance team for the lodge south of me, Enda Lechauhanne #57, is a Ventureing Crew. Its kinda wierd when you think about it.

[arrowman168 10]

I just wanted to add this. I have been in the OA for two years now. I hold the Brotherhood Honor and I am a Vice Chief in my lodge. I also plan on joining a Crew. I would like to tell a story if I could.. I do all the OA elections for the Troops in my distric. This one troop I held an election for also had a crew meet on the same night with them since both were small and were chartered by the same chruch. So when I gave my little talk about the OA and showed a video on the Order, some of the Venture people came over to listen in because I guess they had never heard of th OA before. But they just happened to miss that part only troop members being elected. Needless to say I was very surprised to see girls names on the ballots. So I went back over, retold the whole thing abotu the OA is Boy Scouts and Varisty Scouts and did antoher election with some drity looks form the crew members. Just a funny little story I thought I would share.

[Vicki 11]

AZScouter wrote >Fox, you should really read what you posted, I hope you are not as closed minded and elitist as you sound. If you really feel women should not be allowed, then you should resign and allow a man to take over. I hope I have your attention now.>

 

Wow, what a welcome to the forum! On her very first post, too. You got my attention. This is almost as rude as it gets, IMO, at least in this forum. Fox stated an opinion, and one that has been stated by others. I went back and re-read her post and I see nothing elitist about it. Maybe a little closed minded, but again, we're all entitled to our opinions as long as we're civil in expressing them (which you weren't, AZ). I'm not all that sure girls belong in the BSA either, to be honest, I can see both sides of the discussion.

 

Vicki

[Greying Beaver 10]

The Order of the Arrow is a Boy Scout program. It is not a Venturing program. The only way anyone can be elected as a candidate is to be 1.) a registered boy scout who meets the requirements for election, or 2.) a registered female scouter who meets the camping requirements and is at least 21 years old at the time of nomination

[SR540Beaver 116]

AZScouter,

 

I beg to differ with you about the Jamboree not being exclusive to Boy Scouts. Indeed it is. Venturing had a presence at Jambo, but as staff and not participants. If your daughter went to Jambo as a participant rather than staff, something somewhere went wrong and rules were circumvented. this is from the registration form. "SCOUT REQUIREMENTS: Scouts must be the age of 12 before leaving for the Jamboree and can not have reached the age of 18 before the end of the Jamboree. This means that if you were born "on" or "after" August 4, 1987 or "before" July 25, 1993 you are eligible to attend. Cub Scouts who became Webelos Scouts in 2002 are eligible. Scouts must have attained the Boy Scout Rank of 1st class prior to leaving for the Jamboree." Venturing is not Boy Scouts and girls are not Boy Scouts. Neither can attend the Jambo as a participant. Only as staff.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

The Jamboree is indeed a Boy Scout only event. The Venturers attending were there as staff. One also has to remember that as much as the Jamboree is a BSA event, its also an International event as well. As Eamonn commented in another thread, the Polish Girl Scouts camp was an attraction. When I was at the Jamboree in 2001, the Polish Girl Scouts also improved the aesthetic quality of the environment. There are indeed many young ladies, but none there as participants from the US

[Bob White 20]

It seems that what is being missed by a number of posters is that Boys Scouting and Venturing are independent programs just as Boy Scouting and Cub Scouting.

 

Membership in one program does not make you eligible for the program features and elements of the other. Girls cannot be in OA because there are no girls in the Boy Scout program to join the OA.

 

All the girl members in the BSA are in Venturing and the OA is not an element of the Venturing program.

 

It really is that simple.

 

If at some time the executive board of the OA changes that program element then membership will change. Remember this is a national program, do not assume that just because your council has membership problems that all councils do, or that a national membership policy will be altered based on transitional program numbers that alter from year to year.

 

Remember too that OA events have a far different adult supervision structure than troop activities. Scouts are not required to come with adult supervision from their unit nor are units required to send any adult leadership. Do you really think that it would be a good idea to have co-ed activities under such a loosely supervised structure? Who do you want to hold responsible for any innappropriate activities?

 

[nldscout 18]

Arrowman168,

In the future I would make sure that only eligable scouts and the Scoutmaster were present when I gave the speech and showed the video. We ask all others not eligable to vote to stand in back of room away from scouts except the SM.

 

Where was the SM in this? Didn't he sign the Nomination form ahead of time as required?