Question to run by you all ... thought the topic was safer here :)

[acco40 95]

In the distant past when I was a boy (60's) den leaders (or more correctly den mothers) were 100% female. Most dens met after school and fathers (most) worked and mothers (most) stayed home. I don't want to get into a discussion if that was good or bad, right or wrong but it was the norm at the time. Also, the BSA stipulated that Cubmaster had to be male. At the same time, Scoutmasters had to be male. No ifs ands or buts. I don't think anyone inquired about the sexuality of the leaders at that time . As the years progressed, the BSA now allows male den leaders and female Cubmasters and Scoutmasters. Some perceptions die hard. One of the methods of Scouting is adult association (not MALE adult association). Any adult can fit that bill (oops, only those who believe in God(s) and are not avowed homosexuals!). Program is what sells to the intelligent consumer. Yes, I know of parents who stay clear of troop with female scoutmasters but I don't know of any who stay clear of packs with predominantly female leadership. My suggestion to you when a Neanderthal approaches you about the lack of male leadership is to look him straight in the eye, smile and state, "Yes, I completely agree. What leadership position would you like to take on so that we can move forward in meeting your goal?" That usually makes them back down fairly quick!

[Rooster7 11]

Im agreeable to female leadership, especially in the absence of willing males. Nevertheless, there are many folks including myself, who embrace the idea of male leadership in a program designed to mentor boys. It has some degree of logic to it. Lest we forget that there are differences between men and women that go beyond the physical.

[acco40 95]

I didn't know that the BSA had a program to mentor boys. I always thought that the BSA goals were character development, citizenship training and mental and physical fitness.

[Hunt 11]

I think it's a good thing for boys to have positive male role models, especially if they don't have any in their own families. But it's even more important that they have positive adult role models, period. So I guess I agree with Rooster, to some extent at least. I guess I think the ideal pack or troop would provide positive models of both adult males and females.

[Rooster7 11]

In the effort to guide and develop young girls into women, many in our society have suggested that females should take the lead as role models and seek the forefront. I find this to be very reasonable. Who better? Yet, when the same is suggested about men in regard to the guidance and development of boys, there seems to be some hesitation, as if this suggestion is an insult to women. This is not reasonable.

 

Acco40,

 

Try doing a little research next time. Frankly, I am a little more than a bit surprised that you would challenge me on that statement. Do a word search for mentor on the national site. There are 28 references. This particular excerpt is from a BSA press release:

 

"The purpose of the Boy Scouts of Americato help America's youth reach their full potentialhas not changed in our 93 years," said Chief Scout Executive Roy L. Williams. "That stability and clarity of mission is one reason Scouting is as successful as it is today. Scouting focuses on mentoring youth, building their character, supporting their faith traditions, and helping them establish patterns for lifelong learning, healthy living, and serving others. These attributes have never been more important than they are today."

 

And this from another press release:

 

"Our volunteer leaders are excellent role models, providing mentoring to the youth they serve," Creighton added.

 

And this from a third press release:

 

Unfortunately, no one is born with good character and strong values; those are learned from friends, peers, mentors, and religious leaders. Since its inception, The Boy Scouts of America has recognized the importance of strong role models during a child's formative years. In years gone by, these people were called neighbors, teachers, and community and religious leaders, as well as Scoutmasters. Today, we call them mentors.

 

Who better to mentor boys than men of good character? Of course the knee-jerk liberal response is to say - Women of good character! Good answer, but then again, it assumes that men and women have no differences...that men have no special wisdom or manner which uniquely pertains to their gender, that enables them to uniquely understand and communicate with a boy . I feel that assumption is a gross distortion of reality. Certainly, by all appearances, the modern world seems to grasp this reality when it comes to women and girls. Yet, a double-standard seems to be widely accepted when the discussion turns to men and boys.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Eamonn 61]

Call me a "Knee-jerk liberal.

When it comes to who is best at mentoring good character? I would say the best people for the job are people of good character. I don't care if they are male or female.

When I read the vision and the mission of this great organization I see both men and women working toward that goal.

When I look at the methods used in all three of our programs, I see that both male and female can deliver the goods. The program relies on willing, committed and trained volunteer leaders, be they male or female.

Eamonn.

[Rooster7 11]

The next logical step/conclusion to your supposition is the Boy Scouts of America should not be so narrow minded as to serve boys only. If there are no differences between men and women of good character, then there must not be any differences between boys and girls of good character. I say: Viva le difference! Yes, I value women no less than I value men. But lets open our eyes a little more here. Men are uniquely suited to mentor boys.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[scoutingagain 20]

 

I think women should be able to hold any leadership position in the BSA they want and can effectively do. Same as men. However, while I might not go so far as to say men are uniquely qualified to mentor boys, I share the belief that there is added value when boys are mentored by men of character and that part of the Boy Scout experience should be the association of young men with adult men of character.

 

This does not mean that women are not able to mentor boys. I think each gender can bring their own unique value to the program. Men bring some things to the program that women don't and the same can be said for women.

 

SA

 

 

 

 

[Rooster7 11]

Men bring some things to the program that women don't and the same can be said for women.

 

Yes. Yes. Yes. Undeniable.

 

BUT - these boys will grow to become men one day, not women. At least, we can hope.

 

[johndaigler 10]

Men make great mentors for boys! That's one of the most important facets of our program. But let's not try to place more value on the mentoring that men can do for boys vs. the mentoring that women can do for boys. Traditionally, we have this strong "father figure" role model that evey boy needs (would benefit from). But that same tradition, doesn't necessarily do justice to a strong "mother figure". We tend to see "mothers" (female elementary teachers, etc.) as "good" for younger children, for example our cute little Cubs. But, as a boy grows up, he "needs a MAN in his life" (fathers, sports coaches, male secondary teachers, etc.). That model doesn't fit our society anymore. And, even if you're silently wishing for the good ol' days, that life model minimized not only girls and women, but it also kept doors closed for boys and minimized their growth into adulthood. Monoliths like BSA don't move quickly, but it's great that we're moving toward even more improved mentoring by carefully de-gendering our leadership roles.

 

If boys of all ages didn't need increased and improved (that's a terrible phrase, but I think you know what I'm trying to say) "Female" mentoring in their lives, we men would understand women better!!!! And (carefully stepping on strange turf), I'd be ready to believe the same truth holds for girls benefitting from male mentors.

 

Rooster, I wouldn't be too worried about, "The next logical step/conclusion to your supposition is the Boy Scouts of America should not be so narrow minded as to serve boys only." It's A logical step, but not THE logical step. We're just not good enough to pull off that interesting concept. The present Adult Leadership generation isn't capable of that complicated step. We're just not "Human" enough -- we're all either "too Male" or "too Female". I'm not saying that we need to become less of what we are -- we just need to become more of what we aren't. Maybe our children's children will be so good at parenting and mentoring and "being Human" that they'll consider, and successfully implement, Scouting with boys and girls. I'm thinking that it's going to be their worry not ours.

 

jd

[fotoscout 15]

This is very sad commentary on Scouting today. Look at Lauries words, I do think that locally this may be a problem, how very sad. Ill bet that the same people who object to female leaders still refer to their neighboring units as the Black unit, or the Catholic unit, or the Baptist unit, or Latino Unit or Jewish unit or the LDS unit. Ill also bet that those who object to female leaders are in what Ive previously call polarized units that have virtually no diversity within the unit. Its time to close your eyes, and take stock of yourself.

 

And while Im on a harangue, I dont think that the term mentoring was intended in the context that was cited. I think they ignorantly used the wrong word. First, mentoring is commonly done on a one on one basis, second, mentoring is typically related to a relatively narrow focus area. Scouting really doesnt lend itself to either. Mentors develop a very close relationship with their charge(s) in part because of the intense one on one time that they spend together. For the most part we dont do that. Yes, of course we develop relationships with the boys, but not at the level that a mentor would. We are facilitators and role models, sometimes instructors and teachers, but we do not come to Scouting with a practiced, recognized, and applauded set of skills that would qualify us a mentors. I believe that the very first requirement for a mentor, is to be recognized as a knowledgeable and successful person in the discipline that he is mentoring in. None of us qualify as such in all the areas of Scouting.

(This message has been edited by fotoscout)

[Eamonn 61]

I can't help thinking how strange it is that people who are so big on "Male Mentors" belong to an organization that was founded by a man who was raised by his mother, due to his father dying when he was very young.

Have we not already taken the "Next Logical Step" With female Venturers? Last time I looked they were members of the Boy Scouts Of America.

Please be so kind as to explain to me what areas you think men mentors do a better job then women.

Thanks.

Eamonn

[BadenP 93]

Fotoscout all I can say is Amen! to your last post, you hit the nail on the head. It would be nice if more men were involved in Scouting, Etc. but that is not the reality of today. If the women are coming forward to answer the need then more power to them. Rooster7 this is the 21st century, not the 1950's, intolerance and sexism have no place in scouting or society today.

[johndaigler 10]

Guys, let's put the sticks away. There's no need to verbally thrash someone because you disagree with their ideas. I didn't read where Rooster insulted anyone. Make your case, give your thoughts; but judgements about people have in the past, and will in the future, just get in the way of dialogue.

 

Likewise, let's not get caught up in grammar, language usage and semantics. Several of us have used "mentor" incorrectly -- I believe the intended meaning was fairly clear throu

[Backpacker 11]

John D,

This is a politics and issues forum, things here get a little heated sometimes, its the nature of the beast. These posts are already monitored you don't need to be a referee. Let things flow and see where it goes. Let the people reading and posting come to their own conclusions, okay.