JLT and JLTC

[Eagledad 2777]

I will start. I'm excited to learn what Bob White knows. I had a couple of talks with National and have a little insight, very little, but here is what I think your going to see. Not a whole lot of changes for JLTC. But more on Unit JLT. Truth is JLT is a SM responsibility and JLTC should be one step in the JLT experience. Somehow though, SM started using JLTC to do their training. As I said before, once the adult is taken out of the loop, he looses focus on the objective of development of leadership. Once a bad habit starts, it can only be changed by retraining. But once the SM started sending his scouts off for someone else to do the training, he did two things. He shifted off one of his primary respnsibilities, and he lost the one program that teaches Patrol Method. Over time, the replacement adults never learned the values of leadership development and we started a trend of building bad habits on bad habits.

 

Our Council is developing a unit JLT program to give the units so that we can get adults back in the business of developing leadership, and at the same time, reinforce Patrol method everytime they run a JLT course.

 

Barry

[Hanaski 10]

Eagledad,

 

I absolutely agree. With 4 years' experience in our council JLTC, the leadership qualities of the boys that have come through the program are wildly varied. I'd hate to see our program and those elsewhere being relied on as a form of leadership 101 damage control.

 

The current national JLTC curriculum, available in most council outlets, is largely unacceptable in many respects. I have huge hopes for the revision, and hope for the pilot's success. I too am very interested to hear about it. I truly believe leadership is the foundation of building up our youth, and the new JLTC is long overdue.

 

To reintroduce points brought up in the Politics/Issues forum, I disagree with a one-to-one matching of Woodbadge and JLTC. Youth and adults have greatly varying needs *and* differing responsibilities in the scouting unit. Yes, they should both be able to speak the same language, but this should not involve hours and hours of classtime for 13-15 year olds. Learning is doing, and complete and unmistakable application of skills taught during the JLTC is necessary for anything to be taken home.

[Bob White 20]

Here is my personal concern about leaving the bulk of the patrol method training to the troop leaders. Far too many troops don't use the patrol method or have leaders who are not trained and don't even know of the patrol method. I'm not saying that the troop level isn't where the training should be taking place. It absolutely is. The problem is it's not getting done now so what can we do to change it?

 

So, if the troops are going to continue to be the place where Patrol Method training takes place then we need to make it a packaged, structured, canned program that is easy enough for a new SM or one with little or no training skills can deliver flawlessly.

 

Then we need a tool that will encourage even the most tyrannical SM to deliver the training to the junior leaders.

 

Lastly, I would make (as part of the training kit) a 20 minute video overview of the patrol method to be viewed by the parents of the junior leaders so that they would understand how we do what we do with their sons.

 

I will have a better understanding of what is actually being tested later in the year (about Fall). I do know that many scout leaders throughout the country were asked for input and were listened to.

 

I also know from past experience that no matter how good the new program is it won't please everyone. You just can't please a million plus volunteers. So whatever the new program is I hope we will all take a deep breath and rather than say "this is what I like and this is what I don't like", let's say "this is what the program is today and I will do my best to follow it".

 

Bob White

 

 

[EagleWB 10]

I agree that a good Troop JLT is needed and the SM should not pass of this responsibility. As you have stated this starts a downwward spiral that is hard to stop. I also think that is why Hanaski is seeing such a wide variey of qualities in the boys coming out of JLT. I believe that the weeklong course is not for everyone. The SM's should be sending only those boys who have shown an interest or ability in leading. Too many boys are being sent in the hopes that they will come back to the Troop as good leaders.

[Eagledad 2777]

>>The problem is it's not getting done now so what can we do to change it?

[Zahnada 11]

There's often a lot of talk about the connection between Woodbadge and JLTC. Many people want to have JLTC based on the Woodbadge program to encourage a dialogue between SMs and scouts. So, here is my ideal Woodbadge.

 

First we must ask ourselves the question: Who is JLTC for? It is a program for the boys. The boys who attend gain leadership skills that will (hopefully) benefit them throughout their lives. The boys in their home troops receive an improved program because of their newly trained leaders and will also learn leadership by example. To take another step back, the boys and girls who interact with a JLTC trained boy will also gain some insight just by viewing his example. The diffusion can be enormous.

 

So who's Woodbadge for? The answer is: The Boys!!! Anything that an adult gets from Woodbadge should be secondary. Woodbadge should be an experience that helps the adult work with the boys.

 

Because of this, I do not feel that a youth course should be modeled from an adult course. If anything, Woodbadge's curriculum should be based on JLTC.

 

To create a healthy dialogue between scout and Scoutmaster is important, but it could be approached differently. To me, JLTC (in its essence) should be "This is how you, as a boy, can lead." Woodbadge should then be "This is how you, as an adult, can let the boy lead." To create the dialogue, then Woodbadge should explain to the scoutmasters what exactly the boys are learning in JLTC. There's the dialogue. They're both learning the concept of youth leadership, but they're approaching it from different angles. This would accomplish the goals of scouting much more efficiently than two similar courses for two very different ages.

 

Another important emphasis of Woodbadge needs to be the troop JLT. I agree with most other posters that real leadership experience and learning should take place at the troop level. Once a troop JLT program is developed, it should be taught at Woodbadge (and hopefully JLTC) so that it can be introduced at the troop level.

 

Besides these reasons, I also feel that there's a definite difference between adults and youth in their learning styles and to create similar courses will put youth in a learning position where they are not completely comfortable or efficient. Adults can sit through PowerPoint and take notes during classes. Youth need more activity. I'll probably post more of my opinions on this subject later when I talk about the 11 Skills of Leadership.

[Bob White 20]

Zahnada,

You raise some good points however you have overlooked some as well.

 

Yes, all training in scouting should ultimately help the youth. But you need to remember that not all youth are Boy scouts and not all leaders are scoutmasters.

 

Woodbadge does not include JLTC instructions because all volunteers regardless of program or position attend the same Woodbadge. Woodbadge teaches advanced leadership skills that help any adult in any administrative position in scouting.

 

You are right on that we need a tool to teach SMs how to do leadership training in the troop, but I think that equally important is coming up with a device to get the SM to take the training.

 

You are also correct that adults and youth learn differently. that is why the new Trainer Development/BSA 500 spends time explaining that difference.

 

The BSA has worked for the past year to make improvements in the junior leader training process and is now in the process of developing the pilot staffs to field test the new program this summer. The new Junior Leader handbooks that came out last spring are excellent and I am sure that some of that content is reflected in the new training.

 

I look forward to seeing what has been developed.

 

BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Zahnada 11]

I think Bob White is actually backing up my major point. Woodbadge should not be the basis for JLTC. As he points out, Woodbadge teaches leadership to all sorts of scouting positions. Including administrative. This already places Woodbadge as teaching a very different type of leadership. Adult positions in scouting vary so much, and Woodbadge has tried to cover all those positions that it would be confusing to the youth. JLTC should be a focused training session to teach boys how to lead patrols or troops. They can then apply these skills to other areas of life. I feel that if we try to bite off too much with a JLTC curriculum, then less will be understood by the boys and the important topics will be buried.

 

I'm not sure if I want to open up a new can of worms, but Bob's last post made me question the focus of Woodbadge. I feel that things like Troop JLTs and an understanding of the JLTC curriculum are valuable for scoutmasters. Such training could help the program enormously. If Woodbadge doesn't have the time or isn't focused towards these objectives, then maybe some new work needs to be done with Woodbadge. Some have suggested a tier system for troop JLTs. Maybe such a system could work for Woodbadge. Maybe one year could focus on specifically being a SM or ASM and the next year could involve commitees, volunteer work, and other administrative leadership. This is just a thought. I hate to take the topic away from JLTC which I feel the emphasis needs to be on.

 

With that said, what is the history of JLTC? Which came first, Woodbadge or JLTC? When was the original program written? I'm not sure, but it definitely seems like the current JLTC is based heavily on Woodbadge. The classes are a bit abstract, confusing, and sometimes I feel they "dumb-down" the topic a bit much. If this is the case (but please tell me if I'm way off base) then I think it shows that JLTC should be written independently of Woodbadge and if anything, Woodbadge should conform to the JLTC curriculum.

 

Whew. Sorry if I was all over the place in this post.

[Bob White 20]

Woodbadge was just reworked and released late last year as "Woodbadge for the 21st Century". It does not teach a specific position in scouting but an understanding and use of leadership skills. These skills are effective and beneficial regardless of your leadership position in or out of scouting.

 

We do agree that JLT and JLTC need to be different from Woodbadge in order for it to be more useful in a strictly troop setting. It will need to be a mix of scout skill, leadership skills and troop administration.

 

Woodbadge has a fairly equal history as JLT. Both began in England under BP. Both were at their conception based almost entirely on outdoor skills. Each have evolved since then and gone through various developmental stages. Junior Leader Training has changed more frequently than Woodbadge and has far more variations.

 

I am curious about the posters who say that leadership training should begin in the troop early on, when in fact that has been the program for over ten years.

 

New Scout Patrol members are to rotate leadership every 30 days to let every scout attend a Patrol Leaders Council meeting in the first 12-months. Then as they are elected or appointed to a troop or patrol position they have an 'Introduction to Leadership Conference'. following that they attent the troop PLC meetings which should include a brief leadership training and then attend the troop level Junior Leader Training Conference that is a packaged training program to be led by the Scoutmaster. After that the scout could attend a council Junior Leader Training and if selected by the council for staff could attend the National Junior Leader Training Instructors Camp at Philmont. So the majority of development has always been in the troop, unfortunately it is under used by the local leaders.

 

It seems that what is needed more than revamping what we have is using what we have. At one time there was a course called Junior Leader Orientation (Jello) which was done as a one day course on the district level by the district Training Teams and selected junior Leaders. It was used to supplement the unit training. Perhaps that needs to return.

 

The root problems continues to follow us though. no matter how well the junior leaders are trained, if the Scoutmaster does not follow the patrol method and allow the boy to lead than the scouts will not enjoy the leadership growth promised in their handbook.

 

Bob White

 

[Zahnada 11]

Well, since this topic seems to be drifting off this forum's radar, I will assume that there are no objections to NOT basing JLTC on Woodbadge.

 

Now, my next idea for JLTC is... interesting. All I ask is that you read what I have to say with an open mind and then hopefully this will open some debate. Actually, I have a feeling that Bob White will tell me that they have either already tried or are currently utilizing what I will say. So much the better.

 

We need to rethink the 11 Skills of Leadership. And I mean to massively rethink them. First of all, they occupy far too much classtime in a standard JLTC curriculum. These boys have finished school just a few weeks before this. They are on summer mode. While some boys are bred and raised and excell in the classroom, most will turn their minds off. I can't say I blame them. They come to a camp and get stuck in a class for hours at a time.

 

Now, the counterargument is that the class should be very active. It should be interactive and full of activities and games that illustrate the points. I most certainly hope this is true. But it still is a very artificial atmosphere and no boy will forget that he's in a class. Back to schema theory, presentations are associated with class, class is associated with school. School is associated with boredom. Classes, no matter how enthused the staff is or how active it is, will always still be a class.

 

So I propose to limit class time. And to do this will mean to limit the 11 Skills of Leadership.

 

Here's the ideal vision of my plan. Right after morning flag, the scouts do some sort of patrol activity. The staff, intertwines in that activity one of the skills. Such as planning. The skill could either be specifically incorporated, used in the example, or specifically left out (ie. intiative games where they are not allowed to communicate). After lunch, a brief 30-60 minute reflection is held on the morning activities where the staff will tease out the skill that was being emphasized. A quick explanation of the proper uses of it, using the morning activity as the backdrop and then they perform an afternoon activity. In the evening, a brief reflection is held on how this school can be brought to the troops.

 

Now, I realize that something very similar to this approach is used, but I feel it is being bogged down with all 11 of the skills. We need to ask ourselves: would we rather the scouts leave the camp remembering only pieces of 11 skills or would we rather have them leave with 4-5 skills hammered home and deeply understood? I actually expect answers to this basic question to vary, and I welcome the debate.

 

But back to the skills themselves. I have read through the classes many times, and I have decided that these skills are horribly confusing. You'll have the five steps to this, and within step 2 are the three keys to this which are mirrored by step 4 that explains the 8 components of this... There is so much good material on leadership that all of this is important information. However, is it essential information for a boy leader? My answer is no. The important facts of each skill is smothered by secondary, theoretical, abstract ideas. They leave the camp knowing lots, and not knowing anything.

 

The skills need to be reworked to hammer home certain ideas within each. We shouldn't give the theoretical base of everything, because a person leaves a class remembering only so much. Let's repeat the things we really want them to leave with.

 

Ok, this is getting long enough. Tell me what you think.

 

And coming soon: Which of the 11 Skills of Leadership will Zahnada say are not necessary? Goodbye counselling.

[dan 10]

I think I finally got it!

JLT = a one day course usually done at the troop level

JLTC = a one week course usually done at the council level

 

 

let not turn this into FUD

just a little SWIM.

TTFN

 

 

 

 

[Bob White 20]

I don't mean to play with your mind dan but actually the correct terms are Troop Junior Leader Training (1 day), and Junior Leader Training (1 week). However over the years different localitities have given them different names.

BW

[Bob White 20]

Zahnada,

You sure don't leave a guy much wiggle room to answer. Actually, I don't know what is in the new JLT plan. The committee working on it for over a year have only recently finished the trial syllabus and it hasn't even been field tested yet.

 

You have some interesting ideas that are unfortunately badly timed. There was a national discussion board open to the scouting public for the last year to collect input from scouters. Now they have taken that input, and information from others, and they have a product that they are testing. So I guess what we should be saying isn't "Here is what they should do" but "Let's wait and see what they've done".

 

You asked that we be open-minded when we respond, would it be fair to ask you to be open minded as we wait to see what the new training program consists of?

 

Bob White

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Bob,

 

Just as a note off topic, how are such solicitation for comments made known? Such as the ideas for JLT? I would have liked to have made some, obviously others on this thread would have made excellent suggestions as well. I understand it may be too late as far as JLT goes, but what about other topics where input from the filed is desired, how do/should we in the field find out our suggestins are wanted?

[dan 10]

Okay

Than it should be

TJLT = one day training within the troop

JLT = one week of training usually given by council.

The council I am in calls the JLT Thunderbird.

Just trying to tell who is on first.