What do you say?

[Shell in WA- USA 10]

Say, I found someone on the internet that was giving away a backpack. So I wrote to say that I had three boys in scouting that could use the pack.

 

He wrote back to say that "Sorry Shell but I can't in good faith give it to someone who is involved in an organization, no matter how worthy they are such as the Boy Scouts that discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation and religious beliefs."

 

I've had this a few times and one of my boys faced this last fall. I'm just curious, what do you say in cases like this? I already answered him back, but I was just curious what you would say.

 

 

 

[Bob White 20]

I'd say "OK Thank you." and I'd go find one of the other many many many backpacks out there.

[Laurie 10]

I would thank the backpack company/individual for considering the request and taking the time to reply.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

[LovetoCamp 9]

I'd say wait, hold on, I heard they were starting a troop with all homosexual, atheist leaders...you donate the backpack and we'll let your sons and nephews go camping with the new troop.

[Eamonn 61]

Not sure if I am reading this a little differently then Bob and Laurie?

I think you are asking what to say to the Scout?

Much as I would like to think that none of the foolishness that is going on would get back to our youth members, I think it would be naive to think that is the case.

You don't say what age group you are dealing with?

In my case and I stress my case I would steer clear of the sexual orientation if I was dealing with a young Lad. I would tread very carefully depending on how well I knew the Scout. If I thought he was old enough and mature enough I would explain how the Boy Scouts Of America feels that gay or homosexual people while not bad people are not seen to set the example that we want to lead our units.

On the discrimination of religious beliefs. Here I would go over the Promise or the Oath and explain where the BSA stands on this. If the Lad was a young Lad I might want to do this with his parents close at hand. In fact no matter how old he was I would prefer if there was a parent around. If it was a Venturer I would point them in the direction of the literature that the BSA has out there on the official web site and in the books.

Eamonn

[Shell in WA- USA 10]

Sorry I guess I should have said more. This was off a website that people give stuff away (recycle) to keep the landfills clear. An Adult, unassociated with scouting, posted an offer of a backpack. And when I wrote to say I wanted it for my three boys in scouting, he sent the above reply.

 

I told him that I was sorry he felt that way but if he reseached the facts instead of trusting the press, he could see that Scouting is not that way. That sex and sexual orientation has nothing to do with scouts and if I, as a woman leader, put on a bikini and flirted with the boy scouts at summer camp, I'd be asked to leave the program as well. As far as religion, Scouting encompsses many beliefs and backgrounds.

 

I went on to thank him for responding and that if he were really interested he could look into it more. Then even if he still did not wish to support scouting, as least it would be more of an imformed decision.

 

Great website btw, www.freecycle.org It's set up for your specific area and people list things they are giving away or want. The only stipulation is that is HAS to be free and that it is tangible. Check it out.

[Proud Eagle 13]

This would really depend on under what circumstances this backpack is being given away. If it is just an individual getting rid or old equipment, I would say that is totally their option. You could always try to convince them the good done is greater than the harm. You could also make the argument that what groups you or anyone else is a member of are of no consequence. You should ask rhetorically if he is checking the religious and political affiliations of everyone else involved. Then you should let him know that these boys will be using the backpack (if they receive it) for X, Y, and Z activities, and that it shouldn't really matter who they decide to go on those activities with.

 

If this is a company holding a drawing for equipment, then there is potentially a major problem here. Normally companies aren't allowed to discriminate for a wide range of reasons. Being a member of the BSA would probably be such a protected class, if this is just a normal for profit company. In that case I would enter the drawing as an individual, so as not to be confused with a BSA unit (since many such give aways have restrictions on being entered only by individuals, not by groups). If this still didn't work, I would probably inform them that there could be negative consequences, and likely drop it at that.

 

If this is a matter as Eamonn thinks of how to deal with the issue with the boys, I really don't know. I would simply make certain whatever response I gave was honest.

(Boys are never shielded from such things. The homosexual issue was the basis for a number of discussions with others while I was a youth. I once even got into a mild argument with someone during lunch in the school cafeteria, simply because I was the only Boy Scout they knew of. Once while traveling to an event in uniform since becoming an adult, I got the "you don't really exist" treatment from a store employee. Based on their dress and demeanor, I would guess it was related to one of the 3 Gs.)

[Bob White 20]

"If this is a company holding a drawing for equipment, then there is potentially a major problem here. Normally companies aren't allowed to discriminate for a wide range of reasons."

 

I believe you are mistaken on this point, laws regarding discrimination for private sector businesses refer primarily to employment and human resource concerns. I am not aware of any law requiring the winner of a contest to meet such laws and besides it would only effect illegal discrimination and the BSA does not discriminate illegaly as has been substantiated by the US Supreme Court.

[Proud Eagle 13]

Bob White,

I could be wrong, but I would think that for-profit company that provides good and/or services to the general public would have a problem if it discriminated against people for being members of the BSA. If they can discriminate against BSA members they can discriminate against Catholics, Republicans, atheists, or ACLU members. Now perhaps a drawing wouldn't qualify as the sort of service that the business is prohibited from discriminating in the provision of, but I would think it is. It really doesn't matter if the BSA engages in legal or illegal discrimination. That is not really related. Instead, what may be at issue is a business that is likely a place of public accommodation discriminating in the way it is providing services or benefits to the public, based most likely on either political or religious grounds.

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Shell writes:

As far as religion, Scouting encompsses many beliefs and backgrounds.

 

But doesn't allow atheists, which is discrimination on the basis of religious beliefs, so I don't see how your "correction" to him was correct.

 

Some people consider such discrimination to be immoral and refuse to support it.

[Shell in WA- USA 10]

Pardon my ignorance but atheists have a religion? I thought to be an atheist, they don't believe in anything other than themselves. When agreeing to be in scouting, you agree to pay reverence to your higher being, whatever that may be, whatever relious background you may have.

 

One wouldn't join the Black Panthers (or some such organization)as a white person and expect the whole organization to change for it, would you? So why do people do that with Scouting?

 

Ah, too early in the morning to be thinking smartly!

[Proud Eagle 13]

(This probably isn't going to work, but it is worth a try.)

 

Merlyn,

 

Would you not agree that in many, if not most cases businesses are required to provide goods and services to the public, regardless of the beliefs or affiliations of any individual member of the public?

 

I would agree with you that if it is an individual giving something away, they are perfectly within their rights to refuse to give the thing away to Scouts. In the case of a business, which, lacking evidence to the contrary, I would assume is a public accommodation, it does not normally have that right.

 

 

 

Shell,

 

While common sense shows that atheism is not a religion, but rather the lack (or perhaps refusal) thereof, the courts are in no way required to use anything that even approaches common sense. Instead, the courts have decided that freedom of religion includes the right to be free from religion. That has of coarse produced some wacky court rulings, including one that held religious materials to be potentially more harmful to certain individuals than pornography. (It didn't actually make that comparison, if memory serves, rather it just applied a stricter standard to religious materials and their use than it did to pornography in another case.)

 

So, we live in a country where, by the dictates of the Politburo... er... I mean the courts, atheism is just as much a religion as Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, or any of the others.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Shell writes:

Pardon my ignorance but atheists have a religion? I thought to be an atheist, they don't believe in anything other than themselves.

 

Atheists don't believe in GODS. Atheists can believe in anything else (ghosts, UFOs, whatever) while still being atheists by not believing in gods. Some atheists belong to religions (not all religions require god beliefs to be members); most atheists don't belong to a religion.

 

However, excluding people because they are atheists is discrimination on the basis of religion. Specifically, it's discrimination based on whether or not you hold the creed that god(s) exist.

 

When agreeing to be in scouting, you agree to pay reverence to your higher being, whatever that may be, whatever relious background you may have.

 

And that's discrimination on the basis of religious beliefs, as the backpack person said. If you're an atheist, you cannot join. He refused to support such a discriminatory organization.

 

One wouldn't join the Black Panthers (or some such organization)as a white person and expect the whole organization to change for it, would you? So why do people do that with Scouting?

 

Well, it might be the thousands of BSA units chartered to government agencies that can't discriminate on the basis of religion, for one thing. For another, why did blacks want to join whites-only country clubs?

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Proud Eagle writes:

Would you not agree that in many, if not most cases businesses are required to provide goods and services to the public, regardless of the beliefs or affiliations of any individual member of the public?

 

No, businesses are generally "public accommodations" and can't discriminate on the basis of specific traits (religion, race, sex, national origin, etc.), but there are no laws against discriminating against "beliefs" or "affiliations" in general.

 

And it doesn't look like freecycle.org has discriminated; it allowed Shell to contact the person giving away a backpack. That individual decided to not give the backpack to someone associated with scouting.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

Moi-lin, your stupidity shows more and more each day. You whined, "But doesn't allow atheists, which is discrimination on the basis of religious beliefs"

 

No, it isn't, it is discrimination on the basis of disbelief. Get it straight, dude.