My kingdom for a copy of the rules

[imascouter 10]

(Ok, here comes the old Bait & Switch) Did I say kingdom? I meant some nifty scout patches.

 

In the 12/05/02 thread titled, "Troop Equipment Ownership Question" it was suggested that the answer lies in two publications, namely; "Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America", #57-492, and "Charter and Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America", #57-491. These are the rules you agree to live by when you sign forms as well, and as such I would like a copy of them.

 

In that same thread it is suggested that one can contact National for them. First I contacted the scout shop = "Go ask Council." Then I contacted Council, they handed me a card with the address www.scouting.org and said "guess you'll have to surf for it." Then I contacted National = "Only available from the council." Then I contacted council again = "we lost our only copy, we'll let you know when a replacement gets in." (Sounds like "the dog ate my homework")

 

I don't think I should hold my breath waiting for council to follow through, so here's the offer; 4 nifty patches, including a Florida council strip, to the person who can email, fax, or mail me a current copy of these documents. Your help would be appreciated. Thanks again.(This message has been edited by imascouter)

[Bob White 20]

Every Council Service Center in the BSA has a current copy on hand of both of these publications. Go to the office and ask to rwead and photo copy the section that interests you. ( Thanks but no payment is needed, Scouts do not accept rewards for doing good turns. )

 

[imascouter 10]

Bob: The dog ate theirs, they don't have one now. BTW, how many pages is each pub?

[Bob White 20]

Talk to the Scout Executive...no dog is that hungry. I do not know the exact page count.. never needed to use them in all these years, I just needed to know that they existed and where they were. Very very little in them has to do with unit operation. The books are more for Council operation, to keep the program operating within the legal regulations of being a not for profit corporation.

 

The thing to know when it comes to units and equipment is that the unit does not exist as a legal entity at any level. It is a function of the Chartering organization, and as such does not hold ownership of anything. A unit cannot legally hold deed to property or vehicles. The unit cannot sign a contract of any kind since it is not a legal representative of the Charter organization or the BSA.

 

When a unit dissolves the BSA will ask that the resources continue to be used to benefit youth since that was the purpose for the use of the equipment when it was obtained. If the Chartering organization has other youth activities that would benefit from the assets of the former unit the BSA would ask that the equipment or funds be used for that group. If the Chartering organization does not have another youth outlet then the BSA will ask for control of the assets since the equipment was obtained using the image, reputation and name of the Boy Scouts of America.

 

Keep in mind that the majority of ownership belongs to the Chartering Organization and the least ownership belongs to the unit leaders and the committee. The unit has a responsibility to show good stewardship for the equipment, but they do not own it.

 

Bob White

[scoutldr 726]

Do you get the feeling they don't WANT you knowing what the rules and regs say??? As the BSA is a non-profit organization chartered by Congress, I would think that the Freedom of Information Act should apply, if not by the letter of the law, then at least in spirit. Everything the BSA does, including publications, should be "in the sunshine" with free access to anyone who wants to see it. Posting on the internet would be a good first step. Reminds me one time I asked the Comptroller at work (govt agency) to see the Joint Travel Regulations...the reply was, "they are too complicated for you to understand...you ask me the question and I will research it and get you an answer." Now everything is on the internet, and I found that a LOT of what I was told was just plain untruthful.

[Bob White 20]

The Freedom of Information Act does not apply since the BSA is not a government agency. There is no secret about the Rules and Regs manual. Every Council has one. It's just that imascouter's office can't find it. As I said before, it doesn't get a lot of use. It exists because by law as a coporation it has to exist. It describes the legalities of being a non-profit organization defines how councils and districts are established, the authorities of various council bodies, how elections must be held, what records are to be kept and by whom.

 

There is really very little regarding unit operations that is not already available in more pertinent publications such as Guide to Safe Scouting, The Committee Handbook, The Cub Leader and the Scoutmaster Handbooks, The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual, the Insignia Guide and Tour permits.

 

The BSA does try to limit the circulation only because if there were updates it would very difficult and expensive to administrate.

 

Use the resources at your disposal. The local Scout Executive has these books, call and ask to come see them. Copy the parts you are interested in. Good leaders need to be good communicators. whispering fears of conspiracy or calling for openeness when you haven't taken the time to ask the right person the right question is not the kind of leadership we are trying to develop in our scouts. Let's not model that kind of behaviour as leaders.

 

Bob White

[scoutldr 726]

You're right, Bob....I'll pull my claws back in. Perhaps my paranoia was working overtime last night. But if the R&R are that important to the operation of the COuncil, I don't buy the story that "we can't find it." THe correct answer should have been, "come in next Monday and we'll have it available for you." THen scramble to get a copy, even if you have to borrow one from the next council or have a replacement FEDEXed from Irving. It may not be relevant or useful, but that's not the point. THere's too much of an attitude among the professionals that "we're running this organization and we'll tell you what you need and when you need it." Since the volunteers are the backbone of this movement, they should be bending over backward to facilitate what we do, not to dictate. And I still think posting on the Internet is a wonderful idea...then you only have one copy to update. How hard can that be?

[Twocubdad 665]

Right on the money, Scoutldr. While I'm sure Bob White is right (he usually is) about the contents of the R&R; in the general scheme of things, it's not unreasonable for a member of any organization to have the bylaws given to him or her when they join. That imascouter went through all the grief that he did only adds to the perception that, at worse, BSA has something to hide, or, at best, that they are incompetent.

 

Imascouter is apparently having a problem with the ownership of unit property and needs something in writing to clear that up. His DE ought to be jumping over his desk to help him get the info he needs.

 

BSA is bad about asking people to agree with policies and procedures "as outlined in publication #123whatever." While some people will say "sure, whatever," others (myself included) want to read the referenced publication. When that publication isn't readily available, my ears perk up.

 

How difficult would it be for every service center to have a reference library in the lobby with a current copy of every BSA publication? Clip them into binders like they use in auto parts stores, so they won't walk off.If nothing else, that would be a resource for people to make sure they have the latest revision of frequently changed documents, like G2SS.

[imascouter 10]

In addition to these collectable patches, I now additional offer to pay shipping charges not to exceed $3. (which is what I am told WAS the cost for product and S&H when National provided them.)

 

I really did not mean to start another thread for bashing councils. It is too easy to get started down that trail.

 

From the adult application: " b. In signing this application, I have read the attached information and apply for registration with (BSA). I agree to comply with the Charter and Bylaws, and the rules and regulations of (BSA) and the local council."

 

Every adult agrees to comply with these rules, as such they should be commonly availble. I agree that these items should be posted on the Internet. At a minimum they should be available at the scout store.

 

But again I digress, I simply would like my own copy of the rules I pledged to follow.

 

 

[KoreaScouter 13]

Not long ago, one of the Scouts in our Troop had a question about insignia and patch placement that wasn't in the Handbook, but was told it was in the Insignia Guide. He asked me about a copy of the IG. Now, I had access to my unit commish's copy of the IG several years ago in Virginia when I was a Cubmaster, so I knew that most of the information in the IG did not apply to him as a Boy Scout since all the programs' youth and leader guidance is in the book. What I didn't tell him was "...most of what's in there doesn't apply to you. What's your question and I'll find out for you...". What we did was get a copy of the current IG for the Troop, gave it to the Librarian, it's on our bookshelf, and anyone who wants to can check it out and read it.

 

It may not be apparent to old-timers, long-tenured leaders, or the well-connected, but for those of us who haven't been doing this all our lives, it IS difficult to get access to many pubs that we believe would give us a more solid foundation in BSA leadership. Some District and Council staffers CAN be patronizing and condescending, with a "need-to-know" attitude. Make these documents accessible, and I'll decide after I look them over, if they're pertinent to me or not.

 

If BSA doesn't want the expense of printing page changes to the R&R and bylaws, why aren't they posted on the Internet, even on a "leader's only" page where we enter the information off our membership card as a password, if privacy's a concern?

 

It's no secret that several active members of this forum, myself included, are active duty military members. If any organization has a valid reason to limit distribution of its publications, it's the military services. Virtually all of our departmental pubs are on the internet, either on the unclassified or classified side. I can click a link and open a pub that tells me what inert gas to fill an F-16 tire with. Is that pertinent to me? Of course not. But that's not the point. One big difference: the military doesn't make money selling books...BSA does.

 

I would submit that the DE's and DC's jobs would be a lot easier if we masses of unwashed volunteers had real-time access to a full library of guidance and policy. I'd certainly call them less often with questions I could answer myself by "looking it up". I do it at work every day.

 

KS

[imascouter 10]

Would one of you fine Scouters please pass the salt, pepper, and perhaps some of that salsa. I am hoping it will improve the taste of the crow being served here.

 

Arrived in the mail today, one copy of the R&R, and one copy of the C&B. Guess all councils, districts, and paid Scouters are not alike. I am big enough to say when I was wrong. Ahem . . . I was wrong.

 

As another follow up, Bob White was correct; nothing too much of interest in there for 99.9% of scouters.