More rules . . .

[Fat Old Guy 11]

Hopper, knife laws are greatly misunderstood throughout this land.

 

I looked up the Illinois knife laws and at first reading it looks like the prohibition is on carrying a knife for offensive purposes. In fact there is case law that says that carrying a hunting knife is not considered carrying a dangerous weapon unless it is intended to be used in an offensive manner. A Bowie knife is a hunting knife.

 

Now, most knife dealers that I know (I know more than a few) won't sell a knife to a minor just for CYA.

 

I've never stayed in a Holiday Inn Express and I'm not a lawyer but you don't need to be one to read law books.

 

[evmori 11]

I wanna be a member of Bob's Troop so I can show up for Troop meetings whenever I want to & only go on the camping trips & outings I like.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White 20]

That's the spirit Ed!

 

What you would find is a program that made you want to be at all the meetings and outings, not because some rule made you come, but because you enjoyed it so much you wanted to come.

 

It's the Scouting difference, and it works.

 

To have to create rules to get scouts to come to meetings is like tying a bone around your neck to get the dog to play with you. Sure it usually works, but it is a pitiful thing to watch.

 

Instead of making up rules, try Scouting.

Bob White

 

 

 

[SM406 10]

Great thread. My horizons have been expanded, so I thank you all. I once was curious about BSAs by laws. But if they are not concerned about unit operations, it is no longer a high priority in my life.

 

My thoughts on the camo and knife situation is, if the program is being properly presented, particularly concerning the purpose of uniforming and the proper use of a knife, then the likely hood of Scouts feeling the need to attend a troop function so attired would be very small.

 

Our troop has by-laws; they were here when I arrived. However, I think I will try to phase them out by providing the opportunity for the Scouts to take full ownership of the unit.

 

SM406

 

[evmori 11]

No Bob. I'm only gonna show up when I need my book signed or the camping trip or outing will benefit my advancement.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Proud Eagle 13]

This thread seems to have gone off the deep end...

 

 

I would suggest that unit level rules, if designed to be in keeping with BSA policies and made in such a way that they reinforce the BSA policies, Scout Oath, and Scout Law, can be a useful thing. We must remember that we are talking about kids hear. Their is a reason schools have rules. It is for that same reason that units should sometimes establish rules. Certainly it would be best if a unit needed no rules because all of its youth and adults knew, understood, and followed BSA policies, the Oath, and the Law, but that isn't the way the world works. Instead we live in an imperfect world filled with flawed people. I would suggest that while rules may be a symptom of a problem, they are not necessarily a problem of their own if done properly. Also, don't tell me the unit's SM needs to get his act together and fix the problem instead of allowing rules to be created. That would be what would fix the problem in the ideal world, but we live in reality, not Utopia.

[Laurie 10]

"To think that the BSA By-Laws have anything to do with unit operation is just plain wrong."

 

Bob, I have read the National By-laws but not the local by-laws. Why? Because I asked for them on-line when I couldn't see them locally. My reason is that I signed my adult application under a clause that reads:

 

"I understand that:

b. ...I agree to comply with the Charter and Bylaws, and the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America and the local council...."

 

If I am going to agree to this, then I would like to know what it is that I am agreeing with. That's all. In reading the attached information, I see that the charter and by-laws are referred to yet again, so it's not as though they aren't brought to the attention of adults signing an app.

 

Am I misunderstanding this?

 

And just for the record, though I find rules easy to follow, I value relationships above all else and know that some and/or too many rules can be restrictive to the point of hurting the program and/or people. So, I am still looking for the balance in BSA. Had I not been required to sign my agreement of these items, I'd be nothing other than curious. I feel responsible to know them though.

 

Sorry FOG, looks like I'm highjacking this thread.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

[Rooster7 11]

I think there are two sides to this coin.

 

On the one hand, I understand Bob's point. If a unit is running well, the need for these kinds of rules decrease dramatically - they may in fact be unnecessary. I believe it is possible to have such a troop. Given the right leaders, the right attitude, and the proper methods, I believe that it is possible that the boys will respond accordingly. Frankly, Id love to see it. But I also think you have to have the right boys. Generally speaking, there are always a few, if not quite a few boys that are intent on doing their own thing.

 

So, on a more realistic note, I think more often than not, some rules need to be in place. As much as we would like to believe it to be so - Our skillful and dedicated implementation of the true Scouting program does not always bring about the results that we desire or expect. Some boys dont listen. Some boys dont care. And some boys will do as they please, even to the detriment of others. Consequently, I see a benefit in having a good set of well thought-out troop rules and appropriate consequences. At the very least, these rules serve notice to the boys as to what specific consequences they should expect if they choose to ignore the Scout Law and Oath. Perhaps, for the older boys (because they have learned and grown from their Scouting experience), these rules will seem silly. But I imagine, even the older boys can understand why the new boys need to have a set of specific boundaries.

 

[Bob White 20]

I am in no way suggesting that there should not be rules and guidelines. My point is that they already exist for all units.

 

Rather than create its own rules, units should be sharing and following the rules of the BSA.

 

Laurie, As I related before the only part of the By-laws that affect you are the parts shared with you in your New Leader Essentials Training, That the Charter organization owns the unit and contracts each year with the BSA to use and follow the scouting program. Also that your COR is a voting member of the District and Council committees.

 

Bob White

[SR540Beaver 116]

Why am I the guy that always sees both sides of an argument? I causes me more grief than anything else. A well run program does address many problems.....but not all. Most of my camping experience has been with Webelos. We did a camporee with a troop this past spring and just returned from Webelos Woods with a troop. Many of the same problems we have with Cubs are present in the troops as well. How many times do we have to say, "no running in camp" or "no throwing ANYTHING in camp"? I suppose we could say, "only walk" or "leave things on the ground" to put a positive spin on it. The problem is, no matter how we say it, they KEEP doing it! Cubs and Boy Scouts. Yes, we should continue to teach them the Oath and Law and their meanings and set the example by our actions. To date, I still see boys bring electronics to camp, play in the fire, run, throw, mess with other peoples gear, push, shove, knock hats off, call names, use inappropriate language, etc. It may only be 1 in 10 boys acting this way, but 10% is too much. I'm talking about examples from many units of both programs I've seen. This isn't isolated to one unit or one boy. It is events like this that cause all of those "artificial" rules. Boys are boys. They will throw things and they will run. To get them to stop, we have to make rules, repeatedly remind them of the rules and sometimes enforce them. One of my greatest concerns is language. My Webelos son has been exposed to several troops in a search for a troop to join. His complain with each one has been the language of the scouts. If I had a dime for each time I heard the words faggot, gay, homo, fatty, etc, this weekend....I'd be buying myself a nice new down bag. Naturally the majority of this is down in the patrol and away from the adults. I think that the adults that are trying to stay in visual contact with the patrols, but stay away to allow the patrol to function as a boy led unit are unaware of what is going on. At least I hope that is the case! I stayed within ear shot because I wanted to see how our boys were interacting with the troop.

 

I know I got long winded, but the bottom line is that I think a properly run program is a good thing.......but unit rules occasionally need to be establised and enforced. This is after all, the real world and not an "on paper" world.

[dsteele 20]

If boys weren't boys and didn't need the help of Scouting, I'd be running a Tandy leather store or making saddles.

 

The fact is, boys will be boys and it's our job (whether we're paid or not) to help them become men. Actually, they'll become men whether we help or not . . . it's the kind of man they're to become that requires our assistance.

 

I'll be back in a moment to tell those who are committed to boring reading, exactly how to get a copy of the two documents -- Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, and it's corporate by-laws.

 

DS

[Bob White 20]

"They will throw things and they will run. To get them to stop, we have to make rules, repeatedly remind them of the rules and sometimes enforce them."

 

I too see things from both sides. Here is how I see the other side of this statement. You haven't taught the scouts not to run or throw things. You have taught them not to run or throw things in front of you.

 

Character and values change behavior. Rules remind you that there is punishment if caught. Think of all the adults you know who are perfectly comfortable driving 5 to 10 miles over the posted speed limit, UNLESS there is a police car in view. These drivers (and there are alot of them) do not care about the law, they care about not getting caught breaking the law.

 

There is no rule in scouting that says "do not run in camp". There is however a Scout Law that says a scout is courteous. Not running in camp respects the safety of others and of other's property, it is the courteous thing to do. Teach scouts that Courtesy is an important characteristic and you do not need to have a rule about running in camp. You only need to explain that it is the wrong way to behave.

 

Think of the lives that would be saved every day if more drivers had the character of courtesy and drove with respect for the safety of others and their property, rather than with concern only for there own needs and for not getting caught.

 

Character changes behavior not rules.

 

Bob White

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori 11]

SR540Beaver,

Excellent post! Thanks.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

 

[dsteele 20]

People act like the Rules and Regulations and the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America are like secret texts, the holy grail, the location of Atlantis, etc. Sorry, folks, that's not the case. It's more like asking for the chemical forumla of Flintstones Vitamins. They have a formula, it's important to the manufacturer, ya probably ought to know what's in it, but the fact is you're either going to take the vitamins or you're not. Most of us don't need or want to know the formula.

 

In any case, below is word-for-word from the inside cover of both the rules and regs and bylaw books of the BSA.

 

"HOW TO ORDER ADDITIONAL COPIES

 

The publications listed below are no longer available from Supply Division. A distribution will be made to Scout Executives whenver there are enough changes to warrent a new printing. Councils may purchase additional copies for $1.50 each, which includes shipping and handling. Volunteers requesting copies of these publications must contact their local council which will forward their request and payment to: Boy Scouts of America (address). Make checks payable to Boy Scouts of America Account ####-####.

 

57-491 Charter and Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America

57-492 Rules and Regluatinos of the Boy Scouts of America."

 

Just in case you're thinking you want to spend time reading these documents, let me give you a small taste of the contents. I have chosen this passage simply by opening the Rules and Regs and picking a paragraph.

 

Actually, I'll pick an entire Clause. One which is near and dear to unit volunteers -- if this is exciting stuff to you, then you need a copy of the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America. Below is all of Article X. Program, Section 1, Clause 1 and 2.

 

"Advancement

 

Section 1.

 

General Principles

 

Clause 1. Education is the chief function of the Scouting movement and it shall be the basis of the advancement program. A fundamental principle of advancement shall be that the boy's progress is a natural outcome of his activities in his unit. The rank requirements in these phases of the Scouting program, as set forth in the official publications, shall furnish the basis of the activites of the unit.

 

(a) In Cub Scouting, recognition is earned in the home and the neighborhood by passing certain achievements related to simple skills, habits, ideals, and hobbies.

 

(b) In Boy Scouting, recognition is gained through leadership in the troop, attending and participating in its activites, living the ideals of Scouting, and proficiency in activities related to outdoor life, useful skills, and career exploration.

 

© in Varsity Scoutinng, recognition is gained through leadership in the team, attending and participating in its activities, living the ideals of Varsity Scouting, and proficiency in activities related to outdoor life, useful skills, and career exploratino.

 

(d) In Venturing, recognition takes on a wider scope, involving the assumption of adult-like roles, identification with adult careers, and participation in community and citizenship responsibilities.

 

ADMINISTRATION

 

Clause 2. All advancement procedures shall be administered under conditions which harmonize with the aims and purposes of the Boy Scouts of America."

 

And then it gets boring.

 

Here's another clause at random that might be of interest to the hard core BSA member. It pertains to Life Saving Awards:

 

"Article X, Section 5

 

Clause 1. Lifesaving awards. Recognition may be given to a youth member or adult leader of the Boy Scouts of America where the evidence presented to the National Court of Honor, in accordance with prescribed regulations, shows that he or she saved or attempted to save life under circumstances which indicate heroism and risk to self. The court will give consideration to resourcefulness and to demonstrated skill in rescue methods. In no case shall recognition be given where it appears that the risk involved was merely in the performance of duty or the meeting of an obligation because of responsibility to supervise and give leadership to the persons whose lives were saved. The awards are:"

 

What I'm trying to illustrate is that asking for the Rules and Regs and Bylaws is like asking your state for copies of all laws pertaining to driving because you're going to have to agree to them when you get your driver's license. Wouldn't you rather read the "rules of the road" pamphet that you need?

 

If you want a copy of these documents, you now know how to get them. But why bore yourself.

 

If you want to, I say go for it. I just don't think you need them.

 

If they were secret, I certainly wouldn't have posted any of them on the web.

 

DS

 

(This message has been edited by dsteele)

[evmori 11]

I swear, Bob, your post wasn't there when I posted previously!

 

Rules also change behavior. My daughter just got a speeding ticket. She has slowed down. Change in behavior.

 

Kids run in camp in front behind beside you. They know they shouldn't but they do. And the reason they shouldn't is safety related. Nothing in the Scout Law says a Scout should be safe.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10