Medical Procedure

[evmori 11]

Fat Old Guy brought this up in one of his recent posts.

 

Why is OK to kill an unborn baby but not OK to kill a convicted murderer?

 

To me, the only difference is abortion is a medical procedure. I don't agree with it, especially the partial birth kind.

 

What does everyone else think?

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[NJCubScouter 1389]

What I think is that I can't believe you even started this thread. But maybe other people want to discuss their views about abortion in a Scouting forum. That would not include me.

[Marty_Doyle 10]

I do not think it is OK to kill either.

 

There may be instances where it is medically necessary, to save the life of the mother, to perform an abortion. But very limited.

 

As for executions, what right does the state, acting on behalf of it's citizens, to commit murder, even of a murderer?

 

[scoutldr 726]

To those who dare criticize a woman's (or woman-child's) decision to have an abortion, I have just one question. How many have you adopted?

 

Rhetoric and preaching are fine, but worthless. If you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. I have seen first hand how some of these children are raised and the living conditions that a poor, 14 year old unwed mother can provide (along with the 25 year old grandmother, if she's lucky).

 

No, I am not "for" abortion. But neither am I "for" bringing an unwanted, unloved child into the world, to a "parent" who cannot care for it either financially or emotionally.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"As for executions, what right does the state, acting on behalf of it's citizens, to commit murder, even of a murderer?"

 

Sorry, it isn't murder. Murder is the unlawful causing of death.

 

" How many have you adopted? "

 

What's that have to do with the price of tea in china? I have children that were given to me by God (with my wife's help). There are many who would adopt children but the waiting lists for infants are long. If people weren't willing to adopt, there wouldn't be so many Korean, Ukrainian and Russian kids coming into the coutry.

 

"To those who dare criticize a woman's (or woman-child's) decision to have an abortion,"

 

With few exceptions, she made her choice nine months before the child popped out. I know, you'll cry about incest and rape but those are rare compared to the stupid girls who have sex just because their boyfriend wants it.

 

 

[Adrianvs 10]

"No, I am not "for" abortion. But neither am I "for" bringing an unwanted, unloved child into the world, to a "parent" who cannot care for it either financially or emotionally."

 

 

Abortion is not allowing an unloved child to enter the world. It is removing an unloved child from the world. That is a huge difference. Encouraging the notion that coitus is a recreational activity or a psychological need may be considered bringing unloved and unwanted children into the world. Killing the socially, circumstantially, mentally, emotionally, economically, racially, or physically "defective" is not an act of mercy. It is the fullest manifestation of human evil. Let us ask those who were born to and/or raised by poor unwed mothers whether they shouldn't have been. Just curious, how many defective people do you know? Have you thought about what your little world would be like without them? When you look at a low-income "problem" scout, do you secretly wish that he had been killed before it was too late? Those who were born to poor, young, single mothers will never accept your alternatives to life. Trust me, I know.

[evmori 11]

Just for the record, I am adopted. And NJ, what's the big deal? We have discussed many similar things in this forum!

 

 

[packsaddle 753]

I consider decisions between a physician and a patient to be their business and their responsibility alone. Not mine nor anyone else's.

As for the death penalty, I cannot conceive of Jesus supporting or condoning any person to be killed. Period. And I don't claim to have a higher authority than that. Obviously many do.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

(This message has been edited by Fat Old Guy)

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"I consider decisions between a physician and a patient to be their business and their responsibility alone. Not mine nor anyone else's."

 

That's fine if you're talking about having a wart removed or getting liposuction but there's a third person involved who doesn't get to speak.

 

"As for the death penalty, I cannot conceive of Jesus supporting or condoning any person to be killed. Period. And I don't claim to have a higher authority than that."

 

How about his dad?

[OldGreyEagle 5]

The death penalty always confuses me, when we execute a murderer, what we are saying, as a society that the most heinous thing you can do is take away a persons life? everything they have and everything they are ever going to have.? That in society the taking of another's life is at the level that if you kill another, we will kill you. We are saying life is so precious, that if you deprive another of life, we as a society will deprive you of yours. (excused circumstances excepted, self defense, etc. )

 

So, what does that say about society?

[packsaddle 753]

Fat Old Guy, If you argue that there are loads of contradictions I can't provide much rebuttal. And all that ambiguity and confusion then strengthens whose argument? I choose the viewpoint I have because it offers me the clearest path while it insures that no person will be falsely killed by the state.

As for the other topic, no-one I know likes abortion. But that ability is here and NOTHING will eliminate that ability or the choice to use it. Nothing. Therefore where that choice is made, I feel that it should be made by the individuals who best know the case and who bear the responsibility for it: the physician and the patient.

[hops_scout 9]

Personally, I think abortion is just plain wrong.

 

On the matter of the death penalty, I would like to quote Lou Holtz.

 

"I dont chose to displine my players, I enforce their decisions."

 

It's not the exact quote, but it's close.

[kasane 10]

It is probably only in the last century and this one that abortion can be called a "medical procedure". And only in the last 30 or so years was it made legal (with conditions) in many countries, including the USA.

 

In the eons prior to that it was a desperate measure by a woman (with or without the aid of another person) to terminate a pregnancy. It always ended in the death of the fetus. The mother would die either during the attempt or shortly after from infection or blood loss.

 

Many older physicians can probably tell you of the women who were brought into hospitals ill or dying from abortions that were self-terminated or abortions by some back-alley abortion mill.

 

It was a recognition that abortions were going to happen, irregardless of the danger to women, that abortion laws and medical procedures were established. This ensures that the abortion itself did not result in the death of the woman.

 

Yes, this is a "women's rights issue". Without their political pressure in the latter half of the last century, women would probably still be terminating their pregnancies with knitting needles and bleach.

 

Yes, a woman has the right to choose. Yes, her physician is the one to discuss the matter with her - reviewing all the medical impacts of the procedure. She can discuss the "morality" of the matter with herself, her religious counsellor or any counsellor (friend, social worker, etc) that she cares to pick.

 

The final decision is hers and hers alone.

 

[evmori 11]

"Yes, a woman has the right to choose. Yes, her physician is the one to discuss the matter with her - reviewing all the medical impacts of the procedure. She can discuss the "morality" of the matter with herself, her religious counsellor or any counsellor (friend, social worker, etc) that she cares to pick.

 

The final decision is hers and hers alone."

 

So the difference between a pregnant women loosing her unborn child in an auto accident with a drunk driver & an abortion is the women has a choice in an abortion? And that makes its OK? And if abortion is OK, why are people who kill unborn babies in a mothers womb tried for the murder of that unborn baby and abortion doctors aren't?

 

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Trop 1

1 Peter 4:10