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Where to steer agnostic boy?


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I would just add: If he does join, and it doesn't work out, it's not the end of the world. Many, many boys quit Scouting after a year, or half a year, or two years, for a wide variety of reasons. Is the time completely wasted? I don't think so. If they had some fun, learned some skills, maybe learned some leadership skills, learned some citizenship, improved their physical fitness, they do get some benefit. Maybe, as my previous sentence suggests, this boy makes some progress in two of the three "aims," maybe they even get "partials" (to coin a phrase) in all three, but don't make it all the way. Is this bad? And if he experiences some "disappointment" when it doesn't work out, well I really don't think that is a risk that should stop him from trying. Disappointment is part of life, it doesn't mean you don't try. (That may even be one way of saying one of the sentences in the description of "A Scout is Brave," I don't remember but the concept sort of rings a bell.)

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In that latest atheist/Eagle flap, wasn't the kid asked if he couldn't just acknowledge nature or something greater that himself in some kind of semantic plea bargain?

 

regardless, I've always said that Scouting can be of great value to the kids who are beginning to have crises of faith - consider these as high-risk kids that really need the gentle undercurrent of abiding faith so many Scouting units can offer. (I say so many instead of all because some church-CO'd units can be a little monothematic and even strident, but even these have their place.)

 

SO - if Scouting can offer itself as a safe haven for these kids, and the adults can provide good role models of faith, well, I'd think that the longer these kids can associate with the program, the better off they'd be.

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NJCubScouter writes:

I would just add: If he does join, and it doesn't work out, it's not the end of the world. Many, many boys quit Scouting after a year, or half a year, or two years, for a wide variety of reasons.

 

There's a huge difference between dropping out vs. being thrown out for having "unacceptable" religious views. The BSA actively teaches that atheists are second-class citizens.

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Kwc57,

 

I agree with you that parents have a duty to teach certain moral values such as not stealing, not lying, repsecting people, etc. This is a very high priority for me. However there is big difference between teaching these values per se, and insisting that a child become a member of a certain religious organization. I can teach the values without an organized religion. I personally believe that God or whatever you may call the Higher Power does not really care what church or religion you belong to, but is rather more interested in what is in your heart. So many religions believe that they are the one and only path to God; my God is bigger than that.

 

 

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Since he's not sure, and since he's an honest kid, be honest right back with him. Scouting appeals to him--why? Just the fun? Does he understand that there is more to it? Be honest with him on the issue of God. Let him know the risk he takes if he decided he cannot have some sort of faith in God. This will enable him to make a better, more informed decision about Scouting. I personally don't find it surprising that any child--or adult for that matter--at times questions the existence of God. However, he should begin to decide what he believes. He should know that his beliefs have consequences too. If, once you lay it out for him, he is still ready to join Scouting, then he does so knowing he may risk not being able to stay with it should he decide against God's existence. Assuming, of course, that he can currently acknowledge some form of God now so that he may take the Oath in honesty.

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So many religions believe that they are the one and only path to God; my God is bigger than that.

 

For someone who has such "enlightened and inclusive views" on God, you don't seem the least bit concerned about whether or not your statements offend. As a member of the Christian faith I find your insinuation that "my God" is small, or at least smaller than what you'd expect Him to be, to be very crass. Nevertheless, I can handle it. But then again, Im not the one that should concern you.

 

God isn't who you want Him to be. He is who He is. Or as He once described Himself, "I am".

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Rooster,

 

No offence intended to anyone's religion or views. Perhaps I should have stated it differently - my view of God is not limited to any religious doctrine (and the humans interpreting it). I believe that most religions contain some truths but that Truth is not limited to any religion. For many people religion is a beautiful part of their lives. But religion is also the cause of a lot of war and destruction when certain groups believe that they are the one and only true religion.

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maybe you'd consider introducing the boy to the idea of Deism as held by many of the founding fathers..? there'd be both a certain historical American relevance as well as a demystification that he might find appealing - and, it could well represent one of the purest uses of the word "God" in Scouting.

 

food for thought, thought for feud!

 

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Swordse,

 

Thanks for the clarification. Without preaching, I would like to suggest, while your statements are accurate (many religions do claim to be the one and only way...and, many wars have been fought in the name of religion), those facts do not preclude the possibility that one of those faiths is true. It might be easier to simply dismiss them all. Yet, is that the wisest course to take? I can appreciate your position, but Im not sure creating and worshiping a generic god is the solution. Nor do I think God will view that decision as noble. Still, it is your path not mine. Im not judgingI just wanted to offer you some thoughts. Believe me, I do so out of love. Your stance, or at least your attitude towards God and His expectations for us, is not unlike mine some 15 years ago. Then I considered the possibility that the foundation for my faith was based on a false paradigm (i.e., God knows my heart. He loves me. He will forgive me). Theres no doubt that God knows my heart. That fact I never doubted or debated. The real question is Do I know my own heart? And, just because I think Im worth saving is that enough to satisfy God? And, if I dont truly recognize and love God, as I know Him to be, does God promise salvation? I came to the conclusion that I didnt know my own heart, and the only forecast that I could make concerning God and myself is that he would remain true to Himself and act as a Righteous and Loving God. I considered the possibility that I had no idea what God was really like. I considered the possibility that Gods unlimited love did not mean unconditional salvation. It was a scary proposition, but one I believe God instilled in my heart, which ultimately led me to Him.

 

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Rooster, I don't want to get too out of scope on this topic, but would like to touch on a few points. I do not dismiss all religions; on the contrary I believe that most of them contain some truth. The nature of the religion I adhere most closely to encourages me to 'worship as an act of seeking'. I do not think I worship a generic god, but rather I believe we are all sons and daughters of God and thus have the Light within if we choose to listen to it. I think that 'true religion is a personal encounter with God, rather than ritual and ceremony.' (quotes from RELIGIOUS SOCIETY OF FRIENDS(QUAKERS)). Maybe the agnostic boy is looking for something external when he could be looking inward.

 

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...I believe we are all sons and daughters of God and thus have the Light within if we choose to listen to it.

 

You're mixing your metaphors. ;) I know what you meant - although I don't agree. I believe we need to ask God to come into our lives with a very humble heart - and then listen. To some, that may sound like a small distinction, but I believe it is a very important distinction and one that cannot be overlooked. No one should assume that God is eternally waiting - at ones beckon call should one even casually decide that they need a savior.

 

I think that 'true religion is a personal encounter with God, rather than ritual and ceremony.' (quotes from RELIGIOUS SOCIETY OF FRIENDS(QUAKERS)).

 

NO argument with that statement.

 

Maybe the agnostic boy is looking for something external when he could be looking inward.

 

On the surface, I vehemently disagree - because it sounds as if you are saying we are all God. Hopefully, that is not what you meant. On the other hand, if you mean to say - the boy is looking for something physical when he should be looking for something that is spiritual, I agree. Although, I believe God has a physical presence as well.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

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Rooster, this is probably not the place for a religious discussion, eh? I don't think I am mixing my metaphors...I believe there is a spark of God within everyone, and we can all listen to this Light if we choose. But if you don't think that, OK! Yes I do believe we are all God, from God, sons and daughters of God, part of the Whole; I also believe (since you seem interested):

 

'Friends believe that there exists element of God's spirit in every human soul. Thus all persons have inherent worth, independent of their gender, race, age, nationality, religion, and sexual orientation. Their opposition to sexism, racism, religious intolerance, warfare and the death penalty comes from this belief.

Simplicity, pacifism, and inner revelation are long standing Quaker beliefs. Their religion does not consist of accepting specific beliefs or of engaging in certain practices; it involves each person's direct experience of God.

There is a strong mystical component to Quaker belief. In the moving words of one reviewer of this essay, "In Meeting for Worship, God is there. God is probably always there, but in Meeting, I am able to slow down enough to see God. The Light becomes tangible for me, a blanket of love, a hope made living."

They do not have a specific creed; however, many of the coordinating groups have created statements of faith. The statement by the largest Quaker body, the Friends United Meeting includes the beliefs in: true religion as a personal encounter with God, rather than ritual and ceremony

individual worth before God

worship as an act of seeking

the virtues of moral purity, integrity, honesty, simplicity and humility

Christian love and goodness

concern for the suffering and unfortunate

continuing revelation through the Holy Spirit

 

Many do not regard the Bible as the only source of belief and conduct. They rely upon their Inner Light to resolve what they perceive as the Bible's many contradictions. They also feel free to take advantage of scientific and philosophical findings from other sources.

Individual Quakers hold diverse views concerning life after death. Few believe in the eternal punishment of individuals in a Hell.

All aspects of life are sacramental; they do not differentiate between the secular and the religious. No one day or one place or one activity is any more spiritual than any other.

Quakers have had a tradition of opposing war. They have followed the beliefs of the early Christian movement which was strongly pacifist. Early Christians even refused to bring charges against others if there was a possibility of the death penalty being exercised. Together with the Amish, Church of the Brethren, and Mennonites, they made it possible for men to be classified as conscientious objectors.'

 

End of Quaker 101!

 

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Yes I do believe we are all God, from God, sons and daughters of God, part of the Whole.

 

Im sorry to hear that. Only one man was God. He was capable of saving himself from the cross, but remained obedient only to suffer and die - but He rose again to save those willing to come to Him. If youre God, then you dont need a savior. If you truly think you dont need a savior, then spend some time looking in a mirror. As a member of a Christian sect, Im surprised that you would infer anything different. Do you really want to stand before God the Father and stake claim to being part God?

 

By the way, one can step in and out of a light, or one can see what a light might expose, but one cannot listen to a light a light doesnt make a sound. That is why I said you were mixing your metaphors.

 

I guess we have highjacked this thread so I will end my debate with you. If I have the time and energy, I will start a new thread.

 

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Rooster, I didn't think I was debating anything. I was trying to explain the basis of my religious beliefs because you asked. I am not trying to convince you to become Quaker, nor would I expect you to try to convert me to your beliefs. You seem convinced that you are right and I am wrong....I do not feel the need to defend my beliefs simply because you disagree.

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