I hate to dwell, but...

[Zahnada 11]

I realize the topic of gays in scouting has practically been beaten to death in this forum. Neither side is really giving any ground. My only reason for starting this topic is so that I can better understand the issue and the actual policy of the matter.

 

Terms like "avowed" and "gay" are actually very vague and not well defined by the BSA rules as I understand. So I want to ask some hypothetical and direct questions to see where the boundaries of these rules are.

 

Does the policy apply only to adult leaders or to anyone associated with BSA? What about non-volunteer members of BSA?

 

If an adult leader avows that he has been attracted to members of the same sex, but doesn't avow that he's gay, can one be used to assume the other? Is that reason enough for him to be forced to leave BSA?

 

What about gay men who have never engaged in same sex, sexual activity? Do they fall under the restriction? It seems as if their life style isn't any worse than a straight person who abstains from sex.

 

Where do bisexuals fall into this argument? Can a happily married bisexual man who avows that he may have engaged in sexual activity with another man be removed?

 

What about the countless boys and adults out there who are questioning their sexuality? These rules seem to restrict their ability to talk with any member of scouting about the issues they personally face. I heard somewhere that 1/3 of teen suicides are because of sexual orientation confusion and guilt. It seems wrong to sweep these issues under the carpet, but the word "gay" is quickly becoming taboo in scouts.

 

What if a very open and avowed gay man becomes straight? Could Dale walk up to a troop and say, "It's ok, I'm straight now. Will you let me in?"

 

Many of these questions probably have easy and explicitly stated answers. I just find sexuality a very confusing and complicated topic and we all know that there are exceptions to every rule. I just don't know how large this umbrella rule is.

[SR540Beaver 116]

I strongly resisted the urge to post, but it looks like I am anyway.

 

You said, "What if a very open and avowed gay man becomes straight? Could Dale walk up to a troop and say, "It's ok, I'm straight now. Will you let me in?""

 

That is an interesting question. There were many here like Rooster (who has taken a leave of absence) who argued for nurture over nature, that being gay is a choice. If that is true, then if a person chooses to be straight again, would he be accepted back as a leader?

 

[sst3rd 129]

RE:I hate to dwell,but.............

 

THEN DON'T !

[Zahnada 11]

kwc57,

 

This is exactly why I ask these questions. I really want to know where the lines are drawn. It is my perception that BSA is walking a very thin line on the whole issue and it's only a matter of time before someone pushes them. I'm not trying to start up debates or argue with people. I'm finding out how broad the policy is and how broad are people's opinions of the issue.

 

I'm kind of torn on the nature vs nurture issue. If it is a socially constructed thing, then a person can easily decide to not be gay. Are they then allowed back in despite how "avowed" they might have been?

 

What if it's nature and a person was only confused about their sexuality in the past? I find these interesting questions.

 

 

And sst3rd,

 

Thank you for expressing your views on this topic. You managed to display your feelings in a very brief manner. I hereby free you of any obligation to respond to this thread or read these posts anymore. You don't have to worry. This issue won't bother you anymore. (as long as you don't look)

[evmori 11]

These are good questions, but this horse has been beaten one too many times.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[fboisseau 10]

Zahnada,

I will take a stab at answering your questions. I have no standing other than as a volunteer and this is just I applying my logic and knowledge to your questions.

 

"Does the policy apply only to adult leaders or to anyone associated with BSA? What about non-volunteer members of BSA? "

 

First part since BSA has no control over non-members their rules can not apply to someone who is not a member. So in my opinion the rules would not apply to a parent who helps the troop/pack, but does not join. The second part is more interesting. Since from what I know you have to be a member of BSA to hold certain position as a professional in BSA the rules would apply to them, but for people who the membership rule does not apply, they would be exempt from any rules dealing with membership.

 

"If an adult leader avows that he has been attracted to members of the same sex, but doesn't avow that he's gay, can one be used to assume the other? Is that reason enough for him to be forced to leave BSA?

What about gay men who have never engaged in same sex, sexual activity? Do they fall under the restriction? It seems as if their life style isn't any worse than a straight person who abstains from sex."

 

I will take these two questions together since to me the rules that would apply are similar. From what I understand the two things that BSA looks at when determining if this membership rule is to take effect are 1) To advocate that a homosexual behavior is a moral decision to youth of scouting age or 2) To engage in homosexual behavior. I would have to say, in my opinion, as long as the person in question does not do either of these then BSA would not attempt to enforce the rule.

 

"Where do bisexuals fall into this argument? Can a happily married bisexual man who avows that he may have engaged in sexual activity with another man be removed? "

 

Since in order to be bisexual you have to engage is homosexual behavior, which is sex with a person of the same sex. I would have to say they are in violation of the membership requirement, in my opinion.

 

"What about the countless boys and adults out there who are questioning their sexuality? These rules seem to restrict their ability to talk with any member of scouting about the issues they personally face. I heard somewhere that 1/3 of teen suicides are because of sexual orientation confusion and guilt. It seems wrong to sweep these issues under the carpet, but the word "gay" is quickly becoming taboo in scouts. "

 

In regard to youth, from what I understand, the position of the BSA is two-fold. First BSA is very clear that they believe abstinence is preferred for youth in all circumstances, my above opinion about not engaging in homosexual behavior would apply. The second area BSA is clear on, except for the point about abstinence, BSA wants us to stay out of sex issue and direct youth to talk to their parents, religious leaders, or other non-scout adult that they feel comfortable with about sexual issues. As for an adult, if he/she were talking to other adults, I would suggest that they keep it to their self since most people are uncomfortable with these issues and would not appreciate the discussion. If they are talking to youth they should be removed from Scouts ASAP since they are in violation. Keep in mind these are my opinions, based on my understanding of the rules and my own logic.

 

"What if a very open and avowed gay man becomes straight? Could Dale walk up to a troop and say, "It's ok, I'm straight now. Will you let me in?" "

 

This one is tough, but in my opinion the following issues would have to be addressed. 1) How do we know the person is telling the truth? 2) Does he/she still advocate homosexuality as a moral lifestyle? If I were asked to make such a decision the person involved would have to do a lot to convince me on both of these points.

 

Now that I have posted my opinion on these questions, I will bow out of this discussion unless direct questions for clarification are asked of me.

[Bob White 20]

The one and only post to this string I will make as well.

 

Membership rules of the BSA apply to all registered members. All employees of the BSA are required to be registered members.

 

The BSA can remove any member for any reason. As a private organization we have that legal authority. If a person talks or behaves in any fashion that detracts from the purpose or mission of scouting, they can have their membership revoked.

 

Bi-sexual? see previous paragraph.

 

The rules of the BSA not only restrict you from discussing sexual topics with youth but prohibit it completely, except for information regarding youth protection policies of the BSA or the reporting of child abuse.

 

As for the last question, I guess the BSA will deal with that if and when it ever happens.

 

BW

[cmcmullen 10]

I agree BW. We are fortunate to live in a free democracy which grants us the freedom to associate with who we choose. I personally believe that there are some that are trying to analyze the BSA policy with too many interpretations. I think the BSA policy is clear.

 

[Zahnada 11]

cmcmullen,

 

I have to disagree with you and that's why I started this thread. I do not believe that BSA's policy is clear. The beliefs of many of the people behind the policy (such as yourself) are very clear, but the actual policy leaves itself open to much interpretation. This is as I understand it at least. These are some basic questions that should be answered.

 

My main questions are distinguishing between a gay man's actions and his beliefs. If he's attracted to members of the same sex, this could be interpreted as being gay. But if he doesn't follow those impulses, is he still leading an "immoral" life?

 

As to the questions about members and nonmembers falling under these restrictions, it seems like this may be a violation of nondiscriminating hiring policies. That was my first impression. But if they are required to be members, as Bob White indicates, then that loophole seems to be solved. I was just curious about what would happen if a BSA employee came out of the closet. If they weren't a member, it could potentially be unconstitutional hiring practices.

 

Anyway, the point is that these questions exist and will eventually surface in real life situations. I don't see a written answer for these questions or even something that could be interpreted into an answer (if I'm wrong, by all means point me in the right direction).

 

Well, this post has turned into more of a speech than a comment. To sum up, I don't feel that the BSA policy is clear and the vagueness of the entire issue may create problems.