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North Korea And Iraq


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It's definitely a combination of answers. Many of the choices factor in to ignoring North Korea. I personally threw my vote for the China connection because I feel that's the most important. China makes a ground war impossible (we saw that during the Korean War) and China has strong economic connections to the US. China is a friend we wouldn't want as an enemy.

 

Who is Iraq's friend? Nobody as big or as powerful as China. The public seems against Asian ground wars after previous experience too.

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(Who is Iraq's friend? Nobody as big or as powerful as China.) Oh Really? Does anyone here know why France, Germany, and Russia are balking at this war? I am dieing to hear your responses, but based on what I have read hear I would bet my mortgage payment nobody has a clue. Probably be some, because they are anti-American responses though.

 

ASM1

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ASM1,

 

Regardless of what France, Germany, and Russia think about the war and their relations with Iraq, I seriously doubt they would offer Iraq any military support during a conflict. China is different though. While the world still is uncertain of what China would do, the threat is there that they would enter a war if we attacked North Korea. Are you seriously stating that you think that if the US went into Iraq, we would be up against French, German, and Russian troops? Do you think we'd even be up against French, German, or Russian arms?

 

If we fight Iraq, they will stand almost entirely alone. They may have some Al Queda or Palestinian support, but I don't see any standing army in support of Iraq. However, I do see the potential of such an army standing with North Korea.

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BUZZZZ! Wrong answer! That's one. We get a few here and I will explain it all to you. Oh, and by the way, my explaination will NOT be my opinion, but the facts as they are today in this world we all live in. You know, as Paul Harvey used to say, "The rest of the story."

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France and Germany have had an influt ot middle eastern immigrants - 40 million + mostly Muslum. These are not terriosts but they are very sympahetic to any Muslum country. The French and Germans do not want to offend their new neighbors. The other less important reason is the investment these countries have in the current middle eastern dictators.

My $.02

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ASM1,

 

You've grabbed my interest. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not well-informed in many areas of politics.

 

So what are these "facts" that you have that say we'll be up against French, German, and Russian troops if we enter Iraq? I know they don't support the war for numerous reasons. But I said they weren't going to take up arms in defense of Iraq. And I'm still waiting for your evidence to the contrary.

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I think you need to put words in the proper posts, I never said anything about troops. That was the statement form someone else. See how things get turned arounded? LOL! Ok, I will post the entire dreadfull truth in the morning.

 

 

ASM1

 

Be patient, it will be a good read.

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When I was stationed in Europe in the mid-90s, I had the good fortune to attend a security leadership course at the NATO School in Oberammergau, Germany. My NATO counterparts drummed into our heads, among other things, that Europeans and Americans see war and conflict in a fundamentally different manner.

 

This is a generalization, but to the American, war is a thing that happens someplace else -- we send people, some don't come back, but our fundamental way of life back home is unchanged. To the European, war means you're dead, your family is dead, your home and business is destroyed, and your city, perhaps your country, lies in ruins. That can really shape your opinion of conflict, no matter where it takes place. That's one thing.

 

In this particular case, there's an economic national self-interest factor at play involving the Europeans, particularly France and Germany. They have made significant investments in Iraq's oil industry, and fear, perhaps justifiably, that a shooting war will jeopardize their investment, and that any subsequent government in Iraq will nullify any agreements or contracts they had with the former regime. There's plenty of precedent for it.

 

I'm looking forward to ASM1's reasoned analysis of this whole situation. After all, I'm just an ignorant Philistine who's only lived, worked, and toted a gun in most of the places we're talking about here. One thing I'm not is a politician ('cuz I'm not allowed to be!). And most importantly, one thing I don't have is all the answers...I can hardly wait.

 

KS

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KS,

 

I enjoyed your answer. I spend several hours a night watching the various news channels analyze the coming war. I agree with your statements concerning the French and German investments in Iraqi oil. A war there could very possibly destabilize their economies, which is a bad thing for them. I get a kick out of guys like Bill O'Reilly who can't seem to understand that other nations have as much of a right and responsibility to look after their own national interests as we do. Our stance of either you are with us or you are against us is rhetoric that is offensive to other nations. The US's national interests should not come before the interests of other nations where the other nation's citizens are concerned. I too am waiting to read ASM's "informed" facts.

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KS has it about 90% correct except for one thing. Germany, France, and China not in a partnered investment, but in seperate endevors have all invested right about $200 billion in Iraq. Some in oil, but most in technology development and business infastructure. Iraq being an petroleum based economy means their monetary exchange is higher than Russia, France or China. This in Russia's case will be a return on investment in the years to come to $6.4 Trillion Rubles. And $1.6 Trillion Renminbi's in China. In anyones market, that's a lot of cash to risk on a war that is driven by someone elses greed.

 

You can't blame any of these countries for being against this war. They just have too much invested to lose. The US would be exactly the same in a reversed situation.

 

Today, in Russia Putin held a press conference and asked one extremely serious question. In light of the recent US statements that Iraq was behind the 911 attacks in New York, Putin asked this. " I would like an informed person from any country on the face of this Earth to tell me how many Iraqi's were on the airplanes that were part of the 911 attacks in the United States?" There was dead silence in the room. He followed with, " Given the history of Iraq and Suadi Arabia over the last century, it is imposible that Iraq or Suadi Arabia would ever be involved with anything, or any movement that would involve a citizen from the other country. They are blood enemies." This is very true. Sadam would have Bin Laden killed if he could get his hands on him for no other reason than that he is Suadi.

 

France has a lot to lose from this war, but not near as much as Russia or China. Those are powerfull friends. Also keep in mind that for the last 50 years Russia as the Soviet Union was allied with Iraq through strong military support. Now Russia is still an ally with Iraq, but in an economic support. The financial development of this region is a priority to these three nations.

 

In 1983 the US was a strong ally with Iraq because of its opposition to Iran which is no friend of ours. In 1991 we went to war with Iraq because they invaded Kuwait. We went to war not because Kuwait is our friend, but because we have billions of dollars invested in Kuwait and would not allow our investments to be destroyed. Basically the same reason France, Germany, and China oppose our cooked up war now. My question is, if it is alright for us to go to war to protect our investments, why is it not alright for France, Germany, and China to complain that they have to much to lose by this war. Keep in mind, none of these three nations said anything about going to war against us to protect their investments, they just oppose it. But Rumsfeld now spends everyday on television telling Americans how ignorant France and Germany is for opposing us. Well, I am a German American of 6 generations and I take severe offense at him and his remarks. My family went to war as Americans against their homeland for our freedoms. Rumsfeld wants all of us to beleive that if a nation opposes us in this war than they hate America. How dare he! Well, that's the long and short of it. But at least it is the truth.

 

ASM1

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Let us suppose that everything you have said is largely true. Let us also suppose that the US case against Iraq is also largely true.

 

Here's how the geopolitical game works. I've got a $200 billion investment in Iraq, then I need to solve the problem. Germany, France, Russian and China need to be out front disarming Iraq and finding Sadam a nice little retirement villa on the Crimean.

 

If these countries have invested a combined $1 trillion in the sole hands of Sadam Hussein, then they are idiots and deserve to have their infrastructure blasted into rubble. You cannot tell me there isn't another layer of Iraqi military, bureaucratic, or business leadership who would sell out Sadam of a trillion dollars.

 

King Faud, or whoever the heck his name is, may rule Saudi Arabia with an iron fist, but I guarantee that if he ever puts the investments of all the oil companies and the Saudi ruling class at risk the way Sadam has, he's outta there as fast as you can say ninety-nine cents a gallon.

 

The reason we still believe that the North Korean situation can be solved "diplomatically" is because we believe that China will ulitmately come to bear on North Korea and solve the problem for us.

 

Someone should give these guys the boxed set of Soprano reruns and show them how it works.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

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