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Don't ask, I'll tell...


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We're coming up on the one year anniversary of my joining the discussion on this forum ("cake for everyone!"). It's been inspiring to watch the "family" of Scouters (regular contributors) share so much insight and information with each other. It's been particularly interesting for me to view the debates on so many different issues (and many of the same issues over and again).

 

My entire life (well, at least since I was 7) has been centered on Scouting, and my experience and contribution has spanned every level of the program (from local to regional and national, even to international). Scouting was THE guiding force in the development of my life as a young man, and while my contribution back to the program could never equal that which I received from it, I am nonetheless proud that I have done my best, and far more than the average Scouter, to help the Movement continue to prosper.

 

I have indicated in previous posts how deeply I feel that Scouting's gay ban is wrong. I have endeavored to argue with more logic, and less passion, than some others. I have expressed my concerns philosophically and anecdotally.

 

I have explained the impact of the gay ban as I have seen it on several close, personal friends. I have talked about an emotionally distraught young man, sent silently beyond the brink of crisis in his life, pushed there in part by Scouting's judgment. I have also talked of another Scouter who, in his late twenties, received a "ban" letter (shortly after receiving a letter appointing him to a Regional committee covering a dozen or so states, in honor of the good work he had done). He was banned because a local Scout executive "found out" that this Scouter had formed a life-long commitment to another man (a commitment that continues seven years later and is a model for relationships of any kind).

 

My motives and my passion for my position on this matter have been questioned in this forum. To be fair, no one has really posed such questions since the earliest posts I made here; I would like to hope that it became obvious to most that I was neither an outside agitator nor someone who sought to harm the BSA. Most learned I was quite the contrary to those things.

 

I am a champion of Scouting. And I am also a gay man.

 

I'm motivated to post this now, because after a year, I am content that I've stated my positions on this issue as well as I can, and it's now relevant to "personalize" the debate with other regular posters on this subject.

 

The question ("are you gay?") was once asked of me on this forum. I never answered the question, because it was irrelevant, should not have been asked, and did not otherwise affect the message I delivered. For what it's worth, I can honestly say my passion to debate this issue has more to do with the impact that I have seen on others, than any impact I have personally felt. I've personally known about a dozen Scouts/Scouters who are gay (my Scouting friendships have obviously not been contained just to my local community), all of whom were very actively contributing to Scouting. Of the dozen or so, I only know one who has been "banned" by BSA (because they "found out"), and a few others who just cut back on their participation out of discouragement over the new policy.

 

This post is cloaked in anonymity. And while my own participation in Scouting continues to this day, I am only "avowed" as a gay man to a relative handful of Scouting officials who I trust with my "secret" and that I know oppose Scouting's policy, and those close to me with whom I have served. Even without the current policies, my sexuality would not warrant any regular announcement of such. Being gay is just a part of my identity (a personal observation), and it plays no real role in my identity as a Scouter. I share it now not as an open proclamation, but more to personalize the issue in the minds of the regular posters of this forum.

 

I'm happy to continue to discuss this or answer any questions posed (...'cept what's my name, address and registration number ;), that part is still none of y'all's business). My skin is pretty thick, and I'm more and more comfortable wearing it every day. So feel free to challenge me, question me or critique me... Here's an open invitation to make the discussion more personal, if you want. Or, if that doesn't happen, then we can just return to the general discussion, and I'll be content that I'm "fully disclosed" in my debate.

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tj,

I applaud your honesty & courage in your post. I also must condemn those in Scouting who know of your lifestyle & do nothing. They are not living according to the Scout oath or law. And neither are you.

 

I will keep you in my prayers that you will see the error of your way & will ask God's forgiveness for this sin. Then & only then will you & I meet in that great camfire in Heaven.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

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tj,

 

I also have the same question Ed has. How do you, or those in Scouting who know the whole truth, justify that with being Trustworthy?

 

I am 100% certain that you are a valuable member of the Scouting movement. I am 100% certain that your lifestyle is wrong. I am 100% certain that regardless of my opinion, you should lead the life you chose. But finally, I am 100% certain that if the BSA says that you should not be in Scouting, you should not be in Scouting. I am reletively sure that there are plenty of men who would make great Catholic priests, but cannot because they choose to be married. It is sad to lose valuable assests to the Church or to Scouts, but if the insitiutions do not welcome those in the category of person in which we find ourself, we should know enough not to ask to be included.

 

I wish you good luck, and I hope that whatever you do, your influence on youth will be positive.

 

Mark

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tj,

 

Congrats on your "coming out". I appreciate and applaud your deciding to be honest with the rest of the forum.

 

Like the others though, I must question how you reconcile yourself to living the Scout Oath and Law when you most certainly are living a lie within the BSA. I'm sure you justify yourself in saying that the good you do outweighs the example of deceipt you practice, but it doesn't.

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I'm eager to more fully explain myself and answer your questions, but first a question back... Would you care to explain how I (or most of the dozen or so others that I mentioned) violate a BSA policy?(This message has been edited by tjhammer)

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From www.scouting.org:

"The BSA reaffirmed its view that an avowed homosexual cannot serve as a role model for the traditional moral values espoused in the Scout Oath and Law and that these values cannot be subject to local option choices"

 

As far as I personally am concerned, T.J., your choices in your sexual life and the consequences thereof are between you and God. You do realize, however, that your choice is against the standards for leadership requirements that the BSA has set. Therefore, I ask you to do the honorable thing and resign your leadership position. There are many other organizations where you will be a welcome leader. Perhaps you can use your energies there.

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ScoutParent quotes BSA policy:

"The BSA reaffirmed its view that an avowed homosexual..."

 

In keeping his real name and identity secret, tjhammer is not an avowed homosexual; the BSA based its case on their claim that having known gays as leaders conflicted with the message they wanted to send, but since tjhammer is not known to be gay in "real life", he's still in line with BSA policy.

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HERE's (glass held high)to tjhammer. thanks for risking so much, and trying so hard. I almost agree with Merlyn, but since tj HAS come out to a few trusted individuals, I'm guessing that ranks as avowal for the BSA.

 

HOWEVER - perhaps not. and if not, then everyone calling for a resignation seem to be misdirected. after all, if tj is not actively advocating a lifestyle for others, then perhaps that's not avowal.

 

either way - good on ya, tj!

 

 

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tj,

 

First, to answer your question, I agree with scoutparent that your chosen life style is contrary to the policy quoted. I also believe that you continue to disregard the Oath and Law you agree to live by. We all fail, me more than most. But I don't wake up every day knowing that I will fail to live up to my Oath. I find a new and exciting way that life humbles me every day. You know every day that you cannot honestly profess to living the Scout Law and Oath.

 

Secondly, and I fear this will be seen as insincere, but I really do mean it. I would prefer that rather than you leaving Scouts, you left your life style. I am rather new to this forum, and therefore have not benefitted from your participation as much as had I been around as long as have you. But I can tell that you are a sincere, good man who has a lot to offer the community, and probably youth specifically. Being that I believe so strongly in the BSA, I wish that this is where you could be of service. However, if you choose not to conform, I believe you chosse not to belong. I think that is sad, for, as I said, I think you probably are valuable to the program. Sadly though, I suspect that you believe you cannot alter your choice. If you really believe you cannot, please, PLEASE use your compassion and your talents somewhere. The world needs people who care, and you seem to be a gem. I will respect you for doing so (not as if my respect should mean much to anyone). But please respect the BSA's position. I think it is both right and righteous. But even if it is wrong, it is their rule, and they have the right to demand acceptance by its members.

 

Mark

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Sorry Merlyn, but this is what he said, I am only "avowed" as a gay man to a relative handful of Scouting officials who I trust with my "secret" and that I know oppose Scouting's policy, and those close to me with whom I have served.

These are Scouting officials and obviously should not be allowed to continue as officials. If they don't agree with Scouting policy, why belong at all? I can't honestly recite my oath every week knowing that I live a lie to all those who look up to me as a mentor. Think of what a great disappointment TJ will be to those who did look up to him.

TJ,

I can only credit you with honesty to this forum, But how honest is that? So you anonimously admit to being homosexual. That's not honesty in my book. I don't respect you or your lifestyle for being honest only to us and few people who agree with you. So, what to do? My suggestion would be to bow out gracefully, and keep any bad press away from the program you have been a part of for so long and all those officials who hold your secret. All it will take is one person to find you out and your life as you know it now could be ruined. I do not wish that for you or the program. I will include you in my prayers.

Doug

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Merlyn,

 

Do you really think that the test for being "avowed" is acknowledgement? Do you not believe that if any member committed a crime, continued to commit a crime, and had no intention of stopping from committing that crime, though done secretively, he is not an "avowed" criminal?

 

Please do not misunderstand. I am using an analogy, not saying homosexuality is a crime. But largely how we do or do not live up to rules and regulations is not publicly known. If we break a rule, and intend to continue to break a rule, and do so knowingly,it is incumbent on us, on our own, to acknowledge to ourselves that we are not living up to our Oath. Doing anything less is not being true to ourself, or the organization we say we serve.

 

Mark

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mk9750,

 

avow

To acknowledge openly, boldly, and unashamedly; confess: avow guilt. To state positively.

 

A criminal and/or a homosexual may very well know their own character, but to be "avowed" means the above definition.

 

The BSA ban is on avowed homosexuals. Yes, you can argue that by them knowing themselves, they should do the right thing and remove themselves because they are not being true to the Oath, but strictly speaking they are in compliance with the BSA policy if they are not avowed.

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TJ -

 

Based on the responses here I'm kind of sorry that you told us. It makes it so much harder for me to reconcile my own conscience with staying in this program. The only part that keeps me here is knowing that 95% of the agony over gays in scouting is at the adult level, as 90% of the boys don't really have much interest in this issue at all. Obviously the 10% of boys that are worried that they may be gay, or discover they actually ARE gay are the ones that worry about this issue. But it looks like MOST of the adults stress over this immensely.

 

You hetero men that think homosexuality is a "choice" - do you think you could CHOOSE to, umm, get hot over men? If you were told you wrong, a sinner, ostracised from society for your choice to have female partners ... could you just decide to drop your personal biological imperative and go with guys? No? I didn't think so. So what makes you think a homosexual guy can or would want to CHOOSE to do something as drastically wierd to him as that would be to you? Just because it's a "sin"? So is premarital sex. I know not all of you are guilty of either, of course, and I would hope none of you are currently guilty of having relationships outside of your marriages. However, I'd lay odds that a more than a few of you, perhaps in your younger years, DID jump the gun prior to your marriage, and some might even be currently living in a committted (but sexual and therefore sinful) relationship outside of marriage. So you aren't all that morally straight yourselves, necessarily. But you still, I hope, "do your best". As I suspect does TJ.

 

Please don't throw me out too. I'm tediously, boringly straight, married almost 20 years (nope, nothing on the side...) , drink rarely, smoke not at all, worship Christ in a church of believers. And TJ is still welcome at my fire. As long as he's not preaching the merits of a gay lifestyle to the boys, and is following YPP guidelines in the exact same way all you HETERO men had better be doing, I'm not seeing why we wouldn't want him around.

 

For those of you that see only ONE way to look at this issue. I'm an environmental science merit badge counselor in a troop that is about half "creation science" families and half "theory of evolution" families. Which half of the boys should be told they're wrong and drummed out of scouts for the wrong belief system? The merit badge book refers to a date 15,000 years ago. Half the boys in my troop don't believe there was such a time. Now what?

 

 

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Do you really think that the test for being "avowed" is acknowledgement?

 

Yes, as kwc57 stated later in the thread, that's what the word means. If the BSA didn't mean "avowed homosexuals", they could've stated their policy as "The BSA reaffirmed its view that a homosexual cannot serve as a role model etc etc". That policy would exclude avowed and unavowed gays, but apparently that isn't their policy.

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