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This is a story out of St. Louis Missouri. No boy scouts or scout leaders are involved as far as I know. Nevertheless, the story feeds the suspicions of people like me when it comes to admitting any openly gay adult to scouting.





Second man is charged with having sex with boy


Rolf F. Rathmann, president of a prominent group advocating tolerance for gays and lesbians, was charged with eight felonies Thursday accusing him of sexual contact with an underage boy he met on the Internet.


Rathmann, 37, heads Pride St. Louis, which sponsors the annual Pride Festival. He was named in St. Louis County Circuit Court on eight counts of second-degree statutory sodomy.


On Wednesday, authorities charged William T. Sandefur, 50, an executive news producer for KSDK (Channel 5), with three counts of first-degree statutory sodomy involving the same victim.


Different charges apply because the victim was 13 when he allegedly had sex with Sandefur, and 14 when he allegedly had sex with Rathmann, officials explained. Bail for each man was set at $200,000.


Prosecutors said charges against one or more other men who met with the teen may follow.


Officials said the victim appeared to have instigated sexual liaisons with the two suspects using an Internet chat room.


"A crime was committed regardless of the conduct or intentions of the victim," said St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Robert McCulloch. "The theory is that adults are supposed to know better."


McCulloch added, "This case in unusual because we have multiple defendants and one victim. Generally, these cases have multiple victims with one suspect."


Ken Lanning, a former behavioral profiler with the FBI and national expert on crimes against children, said Thursday, "When people think about sex cases involving children, they picture a creepy predator preying on a sweet little angel. But what people don't realize is that the child very often agrees to sex or even initiates contact with the offender."


He noted, "No one keeps these statistics, but the fact that boys are out there hustling for sex is certainly not something that is new or has never happened before."


Lanning emphasized, "It doesn't change the fact that there was a crime."


The boy's parents called police several weeks ago when they became suspicious about his behavior. He had accepted several unusual phone calls, prosecutors said.


Authorities said they had found no connection between the suspects except their relationship with the victim. The teen has cooperated with investigators.


"Obviously, this is a troubled youth," McCulloch said. "And he clearly has some conflicts."


Police said Rathmann, a flight attendant who lives in the 3800 block of Virginia Avenue, met the juvenile on several occasions at Bluebird Park in Ellisville from June to October this year.


Sandefur, of the 3300 block of Watson Road, met the boy in a bathroom of what authorities described only as a high school football stadium in west St. Louis County.


Prosecutors said they would offer support for the victim and his family and had no plans to seek any kind of charges against him.


Jeremy Kohler of the Post-Dispatch contributed to this report.


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You are lumping all homosexuals together. Yes there are sexual deviants, both homosexual and heterosexual. You might say that this is necessary to protect the safety of the boys? If you really had the boys safety as your number one concern, how about banning all male leaders from scouting? Studies have shown again and again that the overwhelming factor in almost all sex crimes is testosterone. Very few females molest boys.


I've got a better idea. Why not admit leaders based on our current criteria, using background checks, interviews, etc. and not sexual orientation AND follow youth protection guidelines? I would like anyone to tell me the occurence of any sexual abuse of a scout when youth protection guidelines were followed. (Really, I would not, but I don't know of any.)(This message has been edited by acco40)

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OK Eisely, I have an article for you that also does not involve Scouting. You have seen the headlines and may know some of these details, but I did not know most of them. The article is from msnbc.com and involves men using their positions of authority to take advantage of under-age girls and women to whom they were supposed to be providing guidance and spiritual care. By the logic that supports your "suspicion," I assume that as a result of this story, you wouldn't want ANY adult male working with any children, regardless of whether the may is straight or gay.





Thousands of newly released files show that the Archdiocese of Boston went to great lengths to hide priests accused of abuse, including clergy who allegedly snorted cocaine and had sex with girls aspiring to be nuns. Many of the allegations have not been proven, but one priest told The Boston Globe that he did have sexual relationships with teenage girls because he was trying to show them what it would be like with Christ.

The records included allegations that one led a double life by carrying on an affair with a female parishioner.

The first round of the documents roughly 3,000 pages about eight Roman Catholic priests was made public Tuesday on a Superior Court order. They had previously been obtained by victims lawyers.

Many of the priests whose files were released are not among the 400 clergy members targeted in the dozens of lawsuits against the archdiocese. But attorneys for plaintiffs hope the documents show the archdiocese had a habit of transferring priests to other parishes even after accusations of child abuse.

There has been no other archdiocese where the extent of the problem has been so clearly identified, said David Clohessy, national director of Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests, or SNAP.


One of the eight priests, Robert M. Burns, had a history of sexual abuse before he came to Boston from the diocese in Youngstown, Ohio, the papers revealed. He was asked to serve in Boston in 1982 as he concluded a year of treatment for child molestation at a church facility.

Then Cardinal Humberto S. Medeiros and at least two of his top aides Bishop Alfred C. Hughes and Thomas V. Daily knew of Burns history, but still assigned him to a parish where he would have contact with children, the documents said.

The files also indicate that Law, after establishing regulations in 1993 to deal with abusive priests, continued to assign accused priests to active duty.

Some of the information contained in those documents is truly horrible, said archdiocese spokeswoman Donna Morrissey, who said she could not comment on the specific allegations. Were committed to helping any and all survivors.



In the late 1960s, the Rev. Robert V. Meffan allegedly recruited girls to become nuns and then sexually abused them, according to 1993 letters from Sister Catherine E. Mulkerrin to her boss, McCormack, who was a top aide to Law. Meffan allegedly would counsel the girls to perform sexual acts as a way of progressing with their religious studies.

Meffan allegedly engaged in sexual acts with four girls in a Cape Cod rental, one of the girls told Mulkerrin, according to the 1993 memo.

According to the records, Meffan encouraged them to be brides of Christ, and described himself as the second coming of Christ. Meffan did anything but intercourse, one woman told church officials, because he said that was for the afterlife.

They were all young girls planning to be nuns, said attorney Roderick MacLeish Jr., who represents 247 plaintiffs suing the archdiocese.

Meffan told The Globe the allegations in the documents were true and that he still believed his sexual relationships with the teenage girls were beautiful and spiritual, and were intended to bring them closer to God.

What I was trying to show them is that Christ is human, and you should love him as a human being, Meffan said. I felt that by having this little bit of intimacy with them that this is what it would be like with Christ.




The Rev. Thomas P. Forry allegedly built a house on Cape Cod for a woman with whom he carried on an 11-year affair, the documents showed. The woman had gone to him seeking advice because of problems in her marriage. The womans son later alleged that Forry made sexual advances toward him.

A 1992 memo from Mulkerrin to McCormack, currently the bishop in Manchester, N.H., outlined the history of allegations against Forry. Seven years later, Law reassigned Forry, then a prison chaplain, to a job as a roaming, fill-in priest to cover for priests on vacation. He is now unassigned.

An unidentified man who answered the door at Forrys home in South Boston dismissed the abuse allegations.

Plaintiffs attorneys and victims advocates say the documents show that Law continued to transfer problem priests until recently.



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Homosexuality is by definition deviancy, and God quite clearly declares it an abomination in the Bible. My concern in allowing openly homosexual leaders is less that my boy would be in danger of molestation, though that is a concern. The real issue is this: how can I teach my kids that homosexual acts are sinful, then let them be in an organization that allows openly homosexual leaders? And I will certainly have trouble with any leader who ever teaches my children that homosexual acts are not sinful.


Regarding men taking advantage of girls, it is improper for any man to have unsupervised one-on-one time with girls.



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Before this becomes another 10-15 page discussion/argument over Homosexuality and what God said and what he meant and whose God is right and all, lets reflect on one thing:


Jesus calls the children dear,

Come to me and never fear,

For I love the little children of the world;

I will take you by the hand,

Lead you to the better land,

For I love the little children of the world.



Jesus loves the little children,

All the children of the world.

Red and yellow, black and white,

All are precious in His sight,

Jesus loves the little children of the world.


Jesus is the Shepherd true,

And Hell always stand by you,

For He loves the little children of the world;

Hes a Savior great and strong,

And Hell shield you from the wrong,

For He loves the little children of the world.




I am coming, Lord, to Thee,

And Your soldier I will be,

For You love the little children of the world;

And Your cross Ill always bear,

And for You Ill do and dare,

For You love the little children of the world.





Let the games (And requisite condemnations begin)(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

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I share some of your concerns. You can teach your children what is and what you believe is not sinful in your own home. I too, would have a problem with any scout leader, homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual, celibate, eunuch, etc. teaching my son that any sexual act is sinful or not sinful. There is no place in Scouting to teach value judgements about sex acts and sexual behavior. Read the Scoutmaster Handbook. It details how to handle questions about sex if a scout brings them up. I agree with it 100%. A leader should never bring up the topic on his own.


Assuming you are a Christian, I take it that you believe in the concept of original sin. Therefore, EVERYONE is sinful. Should we ban all humans as Scout leaders? Of course not. Why not judge homosexual leaders by their actions as leaders? What a novel idea!

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RobK says:


Homosexuality is by definition deviancy, and God quite clearly declares it an abomination in the Bible.


Deviancy from what? Deviancy from the majority? So what? Deviancy from your ideal of appropriate behavior? Your ideal does not govern everybody else. It does not require me or MY organization to exclude people. And as for the Bible (any of the various versions and conflicting translations of it), it does not govern Scouting either. What the Bible says God said about gays is irrelevant. I for one, don't believe God has any animosity toward gays simply for being gay. Is there room in Scouting for both of our beliefs? There is supposed to be. It says so in the rules. But the BSA isn't following its own rules on this issue, and apparently that's just fine with a lot of people, because rules are for other people to follow, not you.


The real issue is this: how can I teach my kids that homosexual acts are sinful, then let them be in an organization that allows openly homosexual leaders?


I am so glad you asked that question. I will give you a two-step guide to doing exactly that. One, get enough support for the BSA to allow each unit decide whether or not it is going to discriminate, excuse me, whether or not it is going to exclude gays. Two, join a unit that does. Mission accomplished. You have taught you son what you think is "sinful," and the Scout unit that he is part of has backed you up all the way. And it's even better than it is now for you, because it's not just some "policy" handed down from on high at the BSA that your unit may or may not agree with. It's a locally adopted rule that you and your local folks can enforce to your heart's content. Boy, if I were you I would go for that in a heartbeat.


Meanwhile, you would be letting ME be in a unit that does not ram anybody's religious beliefs down anybody else's throat. That would be very helpful and friendly of you. You want to be helpful and friendly, don't you?


Regarding men taking advantage of girls, it is improper for any man to have unsupervised one-on-one time with girls.


I would agree with that, though I would prefer the terms "unsafe" and "unwise" to "improper." I would reserve "improper" for if anything is actually done wrong. However, the BSA makes it easy. For several different reasons, one-on-one is not permitted between an adult and a child, regardless of the gender of either. The original post in this thread, and my post about the unfortunate events in the Catholic Church, are evidence of why that is true. It has nothing to do with either the gender or the avowed sexual orientation of any of the parties. Man and girl, man and boy, woman and boy, woman and girl, precautions must be taken in every case. In some combinations, for example woman and girl, the statistics for misbehavior are certainly lower, but things have happened in that instance as well.(This message has been edited by NJCubScouter)

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Deviant from God. In the Bible, homosexuality is considered a sin. Hertosexuality isn't. Sin is deviating from God.



Yes we are all born with original sin. We are all also born with free will. Free to decide whether we want to live according to God's laws or not. God wants us to turn to Him for guidance. And where in the Scout Law or Oath does it say we need to be sin free?


Ed Mori


Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

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There is no place in Scouting to teach value judgements about sex acts and sexual behavior.


Oh really, what about this? "Abstience until marriage is a very wise course of action." Page 376 out of the scout handbook. The section is called sexual responsibility.


Why not judge homosexual leaders by their actions as leaders? What a novel idea!


Sure, why not judge alcoholics, drug users, Dallas Cowboy fans and bank robbers by their actions as leaders as well? Umm, the reason why we don't allow these people to be leaders is the same for homosexuals. BSA finds homosexuality to be immoral and not a healthy way to live one's life(just kidding about the cowboy fans). Therefore these people can not be good role models to our youth.



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Our troop is located between Hollywierd and West LA, a very liberal area. Our troop has more than a few parents who say that they would like to see gays a scoutleaders. Last year, a young gay man wanted to be a scoutleader. He said he liked to backpack and was a experienced camper and he would liked to take the scouts on long term trips. Now the same parents who said it would be fine to have gays leaders, said they did not want this young man to be out with their children. They told him that only parents could be leaders in our troop.

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Hey! Don't drag the beloved Dallas Cowboys into this discussion. You might just step on some toes! Besides, I don't remember anything about being a Cowboy fan on the leader application.


(Hmmm... Must have been posted by a Redskin fan...) ;)(This message has been edited by NativeTexan)

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Sctmom - The reason these parents did not tell the young gay man of BSA policy was 1st, They still say that they disagree with the policy and 2nd, they did not want to hurt anyone fealings and they did not want to hear any additional complaints. In our area gays have been able to cause units to move by puting pressure on the CO's. Here in LA-LAland the gay loby is very strong, Here is where an Eagle Scout Honor Guard was booed at the Dem. Convention.

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