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Taking up the challenge

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Specifically the Roman Catholic Church teaches:


"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."


Now, this covers people who have never heard of Jesus, whether they lived at the wrong time (anytime BC) or in the wrong part of the world when Christianity was developing. But for this discussion, could it also cover those who have heard and dont beleive, but strive to be the best person they can. My brother was sexually seduced by a priest. He can not bear the thought of walking in any church. He tries to be a good person, is he damned because he doesnt accept Jesus because of his experiences? I say no because he doesnt know the church for what it is, just the perverse action of one so-called member. The same priest molested me, I can see he is not a part of the church, but its not in my brothers psyche to arrive at the same conclusion.

I am not sure its up to us to decide who is saved and who isnt



Matt 7; 1-5(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

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I respect and have empathy for the posters of this thread. I certainly can relate to the fact that there are good people who I love that do not recognize Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Furthermore, if I were God, Id grant them salvation. However, I am not God. I cannot even fathom what it means to be God. His ways are not mine. He is the Father and I am merely a child. Even if we were given the capacity to see everything that occurs within the spiritual world, I doubt that our hearts and minds could withstand the realization of this kind of knowledge.


I strongly urge anyone who believes that there are other paths to God the Father, which does not require the Grace of Christ Jesus, to read their Bible. I will concede that God works in many wonderful ways. It may be possible that some folks have come to Christ in a manner not visible to us. However, I would not assume that to be true. Jesus instructs us to preach the Gospel. He warns us that the path is narrow that the path to Hell is wide. These other paths may allow us to sleep well at night. But they do not reflect Biblical teaching. Contrary to this idea, the Bible warns us that there will be many false teachers and teachings. It encourages us to know our doctrine well because there will be plenty of deceivers of the Word.


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Rooster7, remember "The, Lord our God, works in mysterious ways." Can't quote verse, but it is throughout religious teachings. Not only Christian teachings but other religions world wide.


One path for one is sufficient. Belief is the key.


The world is wide and many will reach the ulimate reward whatever they believe.


Intolerlance is the path to conlfict.


Diversity and tolerance.





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Comedian Jon Stewart has a line that goes something like "Atheists are teenagers who hate their parents. Wiccans are teenagers who REALLY hate their parents."


Funny though it may be, I can say from the perspective of both teenager and parent that there may be a grain of truth to this. Maybe not the "hate" part, but the point is that many things go into creating a "belief" or apparent belief, and rebelliousness can be a major factor. It certainly has been a factor for both of my daughters, for me when I was a teenager (when I announced that I was not only an atheist, but a socialist as well), and apparently to some extent for sctmom's sister as well, though her "rebellion" came as an adult.


If there is a lesson in all this, I think it is that some people get way too concerned about this sort of thing. I don't care what other people think about the nature of existence, who's in charge, and the afterlife, if any. I don't want to change what they think, and I don't want them to try to change what I think -- even if they think they are doing good. As far as I'm concerned, they're not.

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NJ, You are right that a lot of choosing a "different" belief system is about rebellion. My sister has been rebellious for as long as I can remember and hear she was rebellious at a year old. She is in her mid-40's and still has the teenager love/hate thing going on with our parents. The part that upsets me the most is that she still harbors a LOT of anger about the churches we attended as a child and about our parents. If you heard the two of us talk about our childhood you would think we grew up in completely different families, even though we are only 5 years apart. The churches we attended as children were not that oppresive. They are not the type I choose today, but they were not beating us or anything like that.


My sister has always identified herself with one persecuted group after another (except Christians and Jews). Got to say she got it honest though, our family has a slew of underdog fighters for various "causes". We joke about the family soapbox that was handed down to us.



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Isn't it odd that Adam's sin (original sin) was also one of rebellion and disobedience. Hmmm.


The thing that initially separated man from God is the same thing hurting and pulling our families apart now. I guess when something works you stick with it...even if you're Satan.



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KWC57, LittleBillie,


I agree with both of your last statements. All sin is based in disobedience of God's will. However, not all disobedience is sinful. The United States was born in disobedience and rebellion to England and much of our understanding of human rights was born in civil disobedience to our own government.


Were Meshach, Shadrach, and Abed Nego correct in disobeying Nebuchanezzar? Was Daniel have obeyed King Darius?



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  • 6 months later...

As Neil Young once said, here is a song guaranteed to bring you down. The book of Ecclesiastes can do just that. It is one of my favorites.


"What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done there is nothing new under the sun." (ECC 1:9)


Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity. What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun? One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose. The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits. All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again. All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing. The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.


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I like to think that I'm a very simple sort of chap.

Yes my parents made me go to church.

For a while I thought about becoming a Roman Catholic Priest. I was as a youth active in the church as an alter boy and member of the church youth group.

For a while as a teenager, I questioned everything, and much to the disappointment of my parents and school masters, did not follow what at that time I thought might have been my "Calling."

As a Scout in England, we had a monthly Church Parade. For the life of me I can't remember what sort of church it was. We all turned up in our uniforms and sat through it.

When I became the Scout Leader (Scoutmaster)things were changing, what was once an "Irish" part of London, now had Council Estates, with high rise buildings, some as high as 15 floors, the area changed, we saw a much more multiracial mix.

The troop was a reflection of the area.

The membership took off. When I was a Scout the troop was about 30 or so members, we had 92 before we split it.

The boys were from every race, creed and religion.

While all the boys made the regular Scout Promise, (The UK does have another promise)

"To do my duty to God.."

I have and do think that it is up to the family to raise their son in the faith that they belong to.

As for the Church Parade, we kind of changed it.

Instead of going to church we, once a month went to the local hospital, which was very big and the Scouts wheeled the patients down to the Church of England church service, the R/C service was a little earlier so those boys could if they wished come early and attend that.

The hospital gave each Scout a pass for the Staff canteen, so they could go there while the service was on, and then go back to wheel the patients back when the sevice was over.

The Scouts had a great time in the elevators, the nurses made a big fuss of them. The vicar was happy.

While this did not "Make up" for going to church, BP once said it is better to do good then be good.

Up till a few minutes ago I had no idea what a Wiccan was.

If a boy came to join a troop and was a member of some group like the Wiccans, I would welcome him (Her if it was a crew)

As for the Religious Award, this is for the group and the powers that be to work out.

As I said, I try to keep things simple.

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