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kd6rxy

hats indoors? yes or no?

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I haveto apologize upon reading some of the other threads especially the one on saluting and further investigation I realize I was in error about the uniform. It does mean to include the Boy Scouts of America.

 

I humblt beg forgiveness

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If I am doing something wrong and a scout comes up to me and tells me I am doing it incorrectly. I have no problem with this as long as he does it correctly. I have scouts do this to me constantly, I feel that this is a good thing. I am willing to learn from others even if they are younger than me! (unlike some here)

But the scouts learn rather quickly if they are going to try and correct Mr. Smith on an error, they better have the scout book close by to show him!

I believe that this is an learning expericne for the scout and me.

Most of my errors are what have been taught the troop over the years that do not agree with the scout handbook.

 

Okay now when you remove the baseball style scout hat where do you put it?

 

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"Okay now when you remove the baseball style scout hat where do you put it? "

 

I don't wear the billed Scout cap but when I do wear a ball cap and remove it when I go inside, I tuck the bill behind my belt at the small of my back.

 

I've seen others fold the bill in half and tuck it into a pocket.

 

 

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Most of our troop will take the "adjustable baseball hat" open it up and clip it on a front facing belt loop. Doesnt get crushed and you know where it is.

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I am willing to learn from others even if they are younger than me! (unlike some here)

 

Nice...

 

Obviously, you failed to grasp the basic nature of the complaint. The issue is not about the adult's willingness to learn from a boy. The issue is about the boy's willingness to show respect. Yes, I am willing to take correction from a boy. However, the boy needs to be very careful about his attitude. He should not be approaching adults as if they are his equals. If he feels compelled to advise an adult about proper flag etiquette, then he should present the information in a humble and respectful manner. In other words, he should say something along the order of, "Are you aware that the US flag code says that one should..." as opposed to telling the adult, "Remove your hat." It's a matter of presentation. It's a matter of respect.

 

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No not nice.

But I got my point across, which I do not believe you did competely in the 1st post. Obviously, you failed to explain it in enough detail. (did I just write that Rooster needs to have longer posts!? ;) ) And we both agree about how one should approach someone with suggestions or ideas. But of course I take issue with the equal part. Is a scout equal with a Scoutmaster or ASM? Or is the scout above them? After all it is their program?

I beleive that everyone should be treated with respect equal or not!

As I believe you do to.

 

 

 

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Rooster7...

 

I agree with you. If there is one thing I insist on it is respect. Of course, respect is best learned thru example. In the "Take off your hat" example, a simple "Please" added would have shown that respect for the adult.

 

In the matter of the hat indoors,it is the same thing; a matter of respect (or courtesy) which many have forgotten.

 

I have always understood that the hat remains on when serving on the color guard, or under arms.

Obviously, the latter does not apply in Scouting.

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I didn't realize what I ws starting with my question. But a lot of intersting stuff being brought up here.

 

I was at camp last week. We had our troop and 4 provisional troops in the same campsite. So there were 5 troops and 6 leaders. One morning on the parade field before breakfast, standing there in my new camp T-shirt and non-uniform but otherwise BSA hat, I asked the other leaders if I should remove my hat or leave it on and salute for the flag raising. Iwas told unanimously taht I was in a class B and a BSA hat, so I should leave it on and salute.

 

In quiet disagreement, I removed my hat bedause I felt I was not in uniform. Everyone else saluted no matter what hat or class uniform they wore(even if it was no class).

 

Oh, and by the way, the uniform for dinner was to be a class A or full field uniform. The camp director dismissed on whos troop was most properly uniformed and the firstonesto go was a troop in troop T-shirts - no field uniforms. Most other troops grumbled at this. So even the camp has an idea that proper uniform does not necessarily mean full field uniform.

 

At our next TC meeting, the CC (ex-military) and I will bring up that our policy on hats will be as follows:

 

indoors - hats off always - period.

 

outdoors - when in full field uniform, the uniform hat may remain on for flag ceremonies, non-uniform hats will be removed. Hats will be removed when not in full field uniform.

 

Since interpretation is open to all, this is how we choose to interpret what is written.

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scoutmaster424,

 

Just to play devil's advocate; Your troop is invited to be the color guard (National Anthem) for the NFL Superbowl game (Rams vs. Bengals, hard to believe eh?) to be played in the E. D. Jones Dome in St. Louis. Your troop is asked to wear their complete field uniform (hat, shirt, socks, belt, pants, neckerchief, etc.). Of course they will be on television to a national audience. The organizers stress that they really want the boys to look good in their full uniforms.

 

Q1) Do you consider the event indoors?

 

Q2) If so, do you remove your hats?(This message has been edited by acco40)

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acco40,

 

I like it when you play this way!

 

Since being in an arena such as this would pose a unique set of circumstances, I would first have to consult Emily Post (but let's not go there). And since you are presenting me the scenario of the hats being requested worn, I would first have to ask the promoter his opinion (but that shouldn't matter). And since the color guard would more than likely start out in the tunnel (indoors), and I would want to do it "by the book," My first thought would be to have them not wear their hats.

 

But I have seen this at a hockey game in the Firstar Center (now the US Bank Arena) and they did wear their hats and it was definitely indoors. The regulation in the isignia guide says that hats can be worn. A lot of these posts (as my own) say no way.

 

I have also seen the local ROTC color guard at indoor events, but for the life of me, I can't remember if they had their hats on or off.

 

But after looking at a picture of the stadium, i would have to say yes to indoors and no to hats. I would have to have a compelling reason to change my opinion.

 

But let's face it, This is a good scenario, but I won't hold my breath waiting for anything like it to happen to us.

 

I do need to brush up on my color guard ettiquette (there is that word again) and then write a few exceptions to the rule. Like how to handle things when the color guard enters a building (or leaves). It makes my head hurt just to think about all the possibilities. I think I will have to refer to my sources (military and non) and get back with you on this.

 

This is very interesting!

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In the "Take off your hat" example, a simple "Please" added would have shown that respect for the adult.

 

BubbaBear,

 

It's definitely better, but I still think it's inappropriate. Why? Because the Scout is assuming that he knows better than the adult. This is a big assumption. In fact, I think it's a disrespectful assumption. However, I do believe that there is a respectful way for a Scout to challenge an adult in this circumstance. This is how I would instruct my son:

 

1) Do not assume that you are infallible. It is possible that the adult may be right and you may be wrong. In fact, quite often this is the case when boys are involved.

 

2) Do not draw public attention to any correction you feel compelled to make of an adult. This rules out - "Please remove your hat", because it would draw the attention of others.

 

3) Approach the adult after the flag ceremony. Be humble when you do.

 

4) Ask him if he was aware of the flag code. If he says yes, ask him if he's has a different interpretation or understanding than you. Allow the adult to either defend his action or admit his mistake. If his interpretation is different that yours, then advise your Scoutmaster at some later time, but don't argue with the adult.

 

Now, why do I believe my son should act any differently if the person needing correction is a Scout as opposed to an adult? The boys are a part of the boy-run structure. The adults are not a part of that structure. So, depending if my son was the Patrol leader or not, I believe he has several different options in the way this situation could be handled.

 

1) As PL or SPL, he could simply instruct the Scout to remove his hat and explain why after the ceremony.

 

2) As PL or SPL, he could treat the boy as he would any adult. There is certainly nothing wrong with this approach. Although, I don't think there is anything wrong with the first option either.

 

3) As "just" another Scout, he could advise the PL or SPL of the Scout's "improper" etiquette.

 

4) As "just" another Scout, he could treat the boy as he would any adult.

 

Respect is a tricky term. That is, you need to put it in context. Respect for what?

 

In regards to treating each other as human beings, with human emotions and frailties (fear, humiliation, embarrassment, etc.), EVERY one deserves EQUAL respect. Of course! That's easy. Nevertheless, as I have already noted, the boys are a part of the boy-run structure. By the nature of that structure, Scouts knowingly submit themselves to the direction of others. By definition, they should be subservient to the leaders of the group.

 

In regards to knowledge and wisdom, while everyone deserves some respect, I feel there is a big distinction between Scouts and Scouters (and/or other adults). A boy should give adults credit for having knowledge and wisdom proportionate to their years. When dealing with an adult, a boy should not assume that the adult is wrong. In short, children should give adults the benefit of the doubt and approach them in a very humble manner. This is the way that I was taught by my parents.

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I saw a game (Tampa Bay vs. the sad sack Lions) in the Pontiac Silver Dome where the military and Webelos Cub Scouts were the honor guard. All wore hats/helmets (official uniform hats); both the Marines, Navy, Army, Air Force & Webelos Scouts.

 

I would have the boys wear their hats. In my troop, a selected few (five boys) were specially asked to perform as an honor guard for a quasi-scout event, an dinner for the largest contributors to the council. The event was held indoors (fancy restaurant). We were going to have the boys wear their hats but only four of the five boys had a hat. We special order our unique troop campaign hats. What I felt was most important was that all of the boys uniform look uniform (all in hats or all not in hats) so we opted for no hats but not for the "indoor rule." Our hats also have a chin strap so sometimes we can "wear" our hats, they would rest on our upper back, chip strap around our necks, but not have them on our heads while indoors.

 

Remember the days when it was considered proper to COVER your head while in church, especially for women?

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Actually, I do remember when women were expected to wear a hat to service. I don't believe it was ever proper for a man to wear a hat in church.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

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Acco40

 

Don't know that I can disagree with what you said nor do I think I want to. As I recall, the MCJROTC wear their hats everywhere. I've never seen them in church.

 

Except to say that I was brought up that men uncover in church and women do not (except in a synagogue and I have no experience there).

 

I admit, I don't have all the answers to this one. But I think as time permits, I will persue it a bit further. I have yet to hear from the Lt. Col. in charge of the MCJROTC at the High School.

 

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Rooster7 & Scoutmaster424, tall pointed hats the exception of course. :-)

 

Oh, and crowns. But are they considered "hats?" I seem to remember certain royal family members wearing their "hats" in church.

 

Seriously, I think I knew at one point but it escapes me now. Why is it considered good manners to remove (especially for males) their hat indoors, for church, etc.? I'm not sure how the custom started.

 

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