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BubbaBear

Stop this Debate in this Forum?

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Simple question...no room for discussion...

 

"Should debate over the homosexual issue be stopped in this forum?"

 

PLEASE- NO Debate over this question.(This message has been edited by BubbaBear)

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Not asked (why I feel debate should not be limited) but I will tell you why,

 

I don't agree with it but would like to work within the system to change it. However, it is a low priority with me now.

 

Sexual matters should not be initiated by the adult leaders with the youth (official BSA policy). The legal issue is really if the BSA is a private or public institution. Currently, the legal system supports the view that it is a private organization and thus can dictate membership qualifications that can be in conflict with certain laws that govern public institutions.

{If private, why did Congress use my tax dollars, and it was in the millions, to help fund the National Jamboree?}

 

I feel that overall, the scouting program is excellent for our youth and adult volunteers. I also believe that the BSA is trying to sit on the fence and not offend the Church of LDS (whose official youth program is scouting) and other powerful lobbies. The BSA supports the idea that scouts should practice their religious beliefs as their religion dictates but in general, does not make value judgements on those beliefs. It does not kick out those who eat pork, eat beef, work on the Sabbath, have an abortion, etc. Why does it make a value judgement on homosexuality? My guess is that it is a money issue. Fear of lawsuits, fear of losing donations, etc.

 

If two deep leadership and all of the other youth protection guidelines are practiced as they should be and adult leaders keep their sexual matters private, within reason, (both heterosexual and homosexual) no problems should occur. My troop knows that I am married and although I don't flaunt it, I make no attempt to hide it. The same should be true for all leaders.

 

I am very actively involved with the Trails End popcorn fundraisers every year and have had stores who have allowed us to use their facilities in the past, stop giving their permission and the reason stated was the BSA stance on homosexuals. I've told my council this and their response was "what stores? We should boycott them!" and thus the level of acrimony intensifies. Not very scout like in my eyes.

 

P.S. If you do not want debate on this issue, why have the poll? Of course, you are free to ignore this and any other post.(This message has been edited by acco40)

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Hey BubbaBear, how about a compromise?

Since we just participate in this board voluntarily and do not own or determine the policies of the site, let's let those people who do run the site make the decision as to whether or not the topic gets didcussed. Then as a voluntary participant you can choose to follow the decisions made by the site owners or choose to join a different board that embraces your values and preferences.

 

(see the parallel to scouting?

 

Bob White

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Unlike this forum, I have invested my time, money, (both directly through dues, FOS, donations and indirectly through United Way, tax dollars, etc.) efforts, sons, etc. to the excellent program that Scouting provides and choose to make it even better when I see faults rather than just walk away.

 

A parallel that I see is when both my parents joined the service during WWII. They did not believe in the segragation of the races that was done by the USN but they chose to defend their country and work within the system for change rather than walk away. And yes, they also volunteered, just like I have done with Scouting.

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BobWhite, your comment about a "parallel to Scouting" is very cute and clever, but I see a different parallel between this forum and Scouting.

 

The owner of this forum and BSA National set up a "program" and have issued certain rules and guidelines within which participants may operate. The participants in the forum are individuals who may say whatever they wish, subject to those rules and guidelines. The participants in the BSA are CO's and their units who may select their leaders within the BSA's rules and guidelines. Within the wide range of those guidelines, participants may make their choices. The actual rules for selection of leaders basically prohibit appointing leaders who have shown a propensity to harm others or seriously disobey the law, and the rest is left to local option.

 

Except on the gay issue. And contrary to what you have said or implied, Bob, there is no rule or policy against a gay person being a leader. It is a current practice of the current leadership, as reflected in press releases and legal briefs. It is not a rule or policy. If you can cite a book or page reference to the policy, please do. In fact, in order to not further offend BubbaBear's delicate sensibilities, I suggest you start a new thread with the book and page number. I'll be waiting.

 

Sorry, BubbaBear, but I thought it was important to dispel this fallacy, for the benefit of those whose minds are open to the truth.

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Bob White...I am sorry, I didn't know that you were part of the decision making group for this forum also...Do us all a favor and take a break from being a pundit.

 

I asked a simple question; your antagonism wasn't necessary.

 

It is clear that you want this issue to continue on regardless of what the silent people say. Those of you who have been vocal about this issue needn't answer this question, your vote has already been cast.

 

I will refrain from answering you questions since you have been so reluctant in answering mine. Have a nice day.

 

Bubba(This message has been edited by BubbaBear)

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Bubba I wasn't antagonizing. I was being quite serious. What happens or more precisely what doesn't happen on this board should be the decision of the owner who allows us to use it.

 

You asked that you, Ed and I stop posting and I did. In the mean time you posted 5 or 6 times. I am having a hard time accepting your commitment and sincerity in this matter. I offered a compromise as you have asked others to do and in return I get a very harsh response. That doesn't seem to be very fair minded.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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What happens or more precisely what doesn't happen on this board should be the decision of the owner who allows us to use it. Actually, the owner of this board has given us only a few very broad rules, ostensibly to maintain the general health and value of the board. Then they leave it up to the members, operating within these broad rules (treat each other with respect and keep the debate honest) to determine our own debate. The owner of the board knows that without the members who post here the board is worthless. And without giving us members the freedom (and encouragement) to post any topic (be it controversial and debate oriented or inquisitive and help oriented) then the board will lack real interest from members and visitors.

 

(BTW, don't read much into my comments... I think the "parallel" is weak at best, and my comments are only an observation on debate and this board, and not intended to stretch further a poor analogy.)(This message has been edited by tjhammer)

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Bob White...

 

I posed a compromise to you...if you or Rooster stop debating this issue in this forum, then I will agree to stop also. I got no direct response from you or Rooster.

 

My continuance to post is a result of not getting a direct response; and frankly I haven't debated the subject since offering the compromise to you all.

 

You say that YOU are having a hard time accepting my sincerity on this subject??? Funny, I was thinking the same of you. Your compromise sounds more like sarcasm to me; thus my "antagonizing " remark.

 

If my comments sounded harsh, that is because they were meant to be. You asked me why I attacked you personally, and I responded with a quick appology. You and I would be better off not communicationg with each other because we do not communicate with each other.

 

You and I need to stop being so suspicious of each other. I do not doubt your integrity, and consequently, you should not doubt mine.

 

Now, if you wish to accept my compromise, I will discuss yours.

 

Bubba

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by BubbaBear)

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On another note...I asked a very simple question, looking for a very simple answer...look what I got.

 

Am I THAT provocative, or is it that some of you just need to get away from debating a subject that does not have an outcome appealing to all?

 

THIS WAS A RHETORICAL QUESTION...DO NOT ANSWER!!

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This seems to me to be one of the biggest issues facing the BSA today. It's an issue that affects many of us, in and out of Scouting.

 

I can understand someone saying, "hey, I am SO tired of this issue, unless someone can come up with something new, don't expect any more posts from me". I CAN'T understand saying, "let's ALL stop talking about it". Since it is now a funds-impacting hot button, major social issue, and great divide between the BSA and the GSUSA, I'm thinking that NOT discussing the issue is playing ostrich.

 

Since it's not going to go to the local level, a forum like this is a wonderful service for a discussion of a national issue in a wide-open, ostensibly national arena.

 

It's easy to find anti-scout, pro-gay forums, and pro-scout, anti-gay forums.

 

But for those who are pro-scout AND pro-gay - well, I for one am glad this is here.

 

 

um - THANKS!

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Regardless of what silent people say?

 

That is the problem or blessing of silent people. I don't know what they say.

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Debate is healthy - at least in a free society.

 

limiting the participation in a debate however is like stacking the deck.

 

Bubba, i've read most of your posts and appreciate and respect your opinion, but your feud with Bob White is more in line with an argument and not a debate. Whether you or any of the other pro homosexuals in scouting debaters like it or not, the board is open to everyone within the framework that Scouterterry set up. Personal attacks are outside those boundaries i believe.

 

I would love this debate to stop and everyone to go back to scouting, but as you have pointed out, this argument is about compromising ones values - something that neither side is willing to (nor should) do without fighting for those values. If you aren't willing to stand up for your values, your values aren't valuable are they?

 

YIS

Quixote

 

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When I started this thread, it was so that I could get an idea as to what the general consensus of opinion was on this debating this issue on the internet.

 

The only people whom responded thus far are the same ones whom voiced their opinion over and over again. Furthermore, I specifically asked for no debate here, but the same ones must occupy air time with their personal struggles.

 

Quiote, I do not know where you decided that I was pro-gay in Scouting, I have stated the opposite time and again.

 

My "argument" with Bob White has turned sour. I proposed a compromise so that the two of us would not continue it on "on the air". Why is it important that any of the rest of you get involved with our personal argument?

 

I appreciate the fact that debate is "wholesome".

This debate, however, is not.

 

As I had said earlier, I advocate "local decision making" over "national decision making".

 

I think it best that I let you all "have your fun" at the expense of those whom are in this for more simplistic reasons.

 

Bob White, no need to respond to my compromise proposal, you stand your ground, it is the right thing to do. The same for the rest of you.

 

I hope to meet you all someday in an atmosphere that is conducive to the Scouting Program.

 

BubbaOstrich

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BubbaBear,

 

I posed a compromise to you...if you or Rooster stop debating this issue in this forum, then I will agree to stop also. I got no direct response from you or Rooster.

 

I don't WANT to spend hours debating this issue over and over again. It is tiresome. It is especially so when those on the other side chose to ignore logic and force the argument into a never-ending circle. So, why do we debate this topic? Personally, I do so out of conviction. I'm not going to sit on the sidelines as certain individuals attempt to brain wash folks into believing that BSA is doing something wrong or immoral. I want the truth to be represented.

 

I have not started the threads on the homosexual debate. I have merely responded to those folks who insist on using the forum to justify immorality. As long as these folks continue to do so, I will respond (as long as I have the energy to do so).(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

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