Women in BSA

[Quixote 10]

Sctmom - put the marshmallow on a stick and hold over the power supply and in some cases over the keyboard as they tend to heat up at times - especially in this forum.

 

YIS

Quixote

[BubbaBear 11]

Hey sctmom...if you like men with multiple personalities, then you ought to get to know me better...they have recorded 12 so far...

 

:)

[NJCubScouter 1389]

sctmom says:

 

If you look back historically at Cub Scouting, the Den Mother role came about because dens met in the afternoons when the dads were away at work.

 

And that was still the case when I joined Cub Scouting as an 8-year-old in 1966. Once a week I would wear my uniform to school (something my son and his friends would never agree to in a million years), and instead of walking home from school (there was no busing), I would walk to the Den Mother's house. Her son was in my class, and her older son was our Den Chief. Once you got to Webelos, however, it was totally different. The position of Webelos Leader (which I believe was a new position in 1967, and my father was the first one in our Pack), was exclusively a male position. And at that time, Cubmaster and assistants, and Scoutmaster and assistants were exclusively male, and I believe troop committee chairman was also, though I do recall that our troop had a woman committee member (but she held the title "secretary" so maybe that was considered ok back then; but I know she was also an active member of the committee.) This all remained true through the end of my "youth time" in Scouting (1976); I have read on the Internet that the position of Den Mother was actually changed to Den Leader and opened to men in 1967, but I never knew that while I was a Cub Scout; it probably took a few years or more before the first male "Den Leader" (for Wolf/Bear) actually appeared.

 

During my non-Scouting years (1976-1998) I had heard bits and pieces about the BSA allowing women leaders in various positions, but nothing prepared me for what I found when my son joined a pack, and later when I became a leader and started attending events where people from other units were present, and participating in Scouting forums on the Internet. Mothers as Webelos leaders, women as Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters, female commissoners; what was the world coming to! But obviously the change was in keeping with the modern world where the subordination of women is no longer accepted, and where 2-earner households are the rule. Something deep in my brain is still surprised when I see a woman Scoutmaster, but I think it's fine; though as I said, the ideal would be for Boy Scouts to have role models of both genders. This will inevitably be true in Cub Scouts, where a higher level of parental involvment is necessary, and I think it would be unusual to find a pack that did not have both genders in leadership positions.

 

My final thought relates to the first time I had heard that a woman was suing to be allowed to be a Scoutmaster; I think that this was in the early 80s. My father was still SM at that time. When I next visited my parents' house I asked him about it, and his reaction was, how could a woman be a Scoutmaster, a woman could never go camping with the boys and the male leaders, it just wouldn't be right. (And my father is a pretty liberal guy, but like most of us, he is a product of his times.) Last summer he was complaining that only women were going to summer camp with the troop, and then this spring I heard him asking one of his fellow old-timer ASM's, "can't we get one man to go this time?" Times sure have changed.

 

[SagerScout 10]

As a female ASM, I find myself in the odd position of being on both sides of this debate! I would be delighted if our tiny troop had another male leader, or two or seven, and I'd be a MB counselor and maybe hang out with the TC with the rest of the wimmenfolks. But right now, we don't. We have a wonderful SM with years of experience hanging around troops but not much SM experience, his wife who is the COR , and a bunch of parents who know somewhere from NOTHING To A Little about scouting yet. So since I am trained (in another troop) and pretty willing, I signed on as an ASM so we could make 2-deep leadership, and it's been plenty fun. I have tried and tried - begged and pleaded - with my husband to get him onboard but although he is a lifetime camper/fisherman/hunter he just ain't going for the scout gig. He helps with support functions and is a good sport about a helper role but is not, repeat not, signing on as a volunteer. I honestly don't know why not, and he won't tell me. I think if he tried it, he'd like it fine. But Scout campouts and such often interfere with televised sports, which are a really big deal to him much of the year. I'd a hundred times rather go to Scout camp than watch baseball on tv, but I can understand why someone else might not see the chance to get sunburned and mosquito bit as a golden opportunity.

 

As far as whether females coddle the boys too much, I find that in our troop, I am the leader more likely to say "hey, let's go for it" on campouts or activities than the SM; for personal reasons, he tends to be very, very conservative with activities for his sons and by extension for the troop. I would say that between the two of us, I am far more demanding of the boys as far as expecting them to handle their own problems and not being one to jump in to save them from minor inconveniences.

 

So - I would like to think I'm a good ASM, or am getting there at least, but I still would wish for more male ASM's for my troop.

[Bob White 20]

BubbaBear,

I don't understand how as a scout leader, say "I am not concerned with other's moral beliefs". Scouting is based on individuals moral beliefs.

 

The Scout Oath and Scout Law are are blueprints for moral character. How can you accomplish the aims of scouting without a positive moral code? How can you have strong character without morals? How can you be a good citizen without morals?

 

I agree that which religious belief a person has is irrelevant, but certainly not having a religious belief is relevant. I agree that a person sex is not relevent, but a person's sexual conduct is.

 

What I disagree with you the most on, is your implication that we should be able to compromise on everything. Not everything in life is open to compromise. My wedding vows (according to my wife) are not open to compromise. My promise to be faithful to her is not optional. She is not about to agree to a compromise on this topic. Does your wife feel any different?

 

For those posters who were in the military, when you took the oath of loyalty to your country did you have the impression that this was open to compromise?

 

I am not saying follow blindly. I am saying open your eyes before you decide which path to take. Before you join a group, take a vow, or sign an agreement, make sure that you can live by the committment you make. Be carefull what you compromise. Once you give away your morals it is nearly impossible to get them back.

 

Bob White

 

 

 

 

[BubbaBear 11]

Sorry sctmom, I tried to get back to your thread here. Good time to make yet another thread...

See you all there...

 

Jake

[bear 10]

I am a female CC, and have been working with a mostly-male troop now for almost 4 years. I think Rooster7 said it so well -- loved his commentary. Yes, I would prefer my own son to have male leadership. Because you men have been boys at one time! Makes sense! HOWEVER, I do enjoy working with the Scouts so much, generally cross-overs, re-chartering, troop meetings. They are great to work with! I wish that the men in my troop would get their Woodbadge training -- I am the only one who pursued it and finished my ticket. I think that coming in as a female, it makes us work all the more harder, have more appreciation for BSA guidelines/training, etc. I have had to work harder in my position (to gain respect?) not only in the troop but also my district position. Plus, I feel I have come into Scouting perhaps with a little more humility than I have seen with male leaders (especially those males who made Eagle 25 years ago and think they don't need training! ARRRRGGGG!

 

Anyway, I do appreciate our male leaders, nonetheless. They know the "language" these boys need to hear and will better respond to.

 

I know, I know -- I'll probably hear some flack from this from other female leaders, but that's my two cents, anyway.

 

Bear

[Airmaiden 10]

I have been a Cub leader for going on 3 years. I love every minute of it. I am learning right along side of the boys. They don't feel intimidated by having someone who knows it all. I have great help from my parents. Some of my cubs have only mothers. I have had great comments from them because they were sort of shy about having to be around a male leader. My assistant den leader is a male. I feel like the boys get the best from both of us.

 

In our pack there is not one male Den leader. We do have some male assistant den leaders. It seems the males like to help assist instead of lead. All of us female leaders talk and share ideas and forms and projects from year to year.

 

I think having a female den leader makes the boys learn respect for women. My cubs treat me with the greatest respect as I do them.

 

I don't think it bothers the boys to have a female leader. Besides they will be surrounded by females all their life. From birth they get a Mom. Then a Grandmother and Aunts and so forth. Most of the teachers are female. As they grow into young men they will choose themleves a mate for life. As a role model for these boys to see the respect I have for my husband and my role as a wife and mother they will hopefully remember and look for those values in a life long spouse.

 

Cub Scout Mom and Den Leader

[littlebillie 10]

whew... so many considerations, eh? the widowed (or otherwised) single mothers of boys with NO adult male figures NEED a chance to participate in the program, esp. if that benefits the boy and the family dynamics. This is not just single-parent sentimentalism - that mom becomes the family's participant and adult voice in all the non-boy stuff.

 

then again, isn't it great for boys to be able to see competent, self-sufficient women in leadership? Role-modeling can be based on the quality of a person, regardless of gender, and if a boy really admires a woman's knot tying ability, and seeks to emulate it, well - good for both of them! The older boys theoretically are role models for the younger, after all. KEEPING WOMEN AWAY from leadership roles sends another message as well - and one that my wife doesn't allow me to agree with!

 

Too, from those lucky couples who can and do rough it together over on the grown-ups' side of the camp site, we can see wonderful examples of strong family relations, mom and dad REALLY investing in their kids. Good for them! And for those who trade off on campouts and meetings, good for them too - this still shows a family and balance AND gives some R&R or catch-up time to the stay-at-home.

 

Finally, there are issues and there are issues, and there are slants and there are slants - but whatever the issues and whatever the slants, scouting is a community within a community, and the more representative the mix of that microcosm is of the greater community, the better off the kids are going to be in the long run. (Frankly, I think we need to be MORE representative over all, but that's another thread! :-) Indeed, this is one of positions taken by those nations that have opted for co-ed scouting programs.

 

Women in leadership? Everybody can win.

[littlebillie 10]

whew... so many considerations, eh? the widowed (or otherwised) single mothers of boys with NO adult male figures NEED a chance to participate in the program, esp. if that benefits the boy and the family dynamics. This is not just single-parent sentimentalism - that mom becomes the family's participant and adult voice in all the non-boy stuff.

 

then again, isn't it great for boys to be able to see competent, self-sufficient women in leadership? Role-modeling can be based on the quality of a person, regardless of gender, and if a boy really admires a woman's knot tying ability, and seeks to emulate it, well - good for both of them! The older boys theoretically are role models for the younger, after all. KEEPING WOMEN AWAY from leadership roles sends another message as well - and one that my wife doesn't allow me to agree with!

 

Too, from those lucky couples who can and do rough it together over on the grown-ups' side of the camp site, we can see wonderful examples of strong family relations, mom and dad REALLY investing in their kids. Good for them! And for those who trade off on campouts and meetings, good for them too - this still shows a family and balance AND gives some R&R or catch-up time to the stay-at-home.

 

Finally, there are issues and there are issues, and there are slants and there are slants - but whatever the issues and whatever the slants, scouting is a community within a community, and the more representative the mix of that microcosm is of the greater community, the better off the kids are going to be in the long run. (Frankly, I think we need to be MORE representative over all, but that's another thread! :-) Indeed, this is one of positions taken by those nations that have opted for co-ed scouting programs.

 

Women in leadership? Everybody can win.

[Eagledad 2777]

>I think having a female den leader makes the boys learn respect for women. My cubs treat me with the greatest respect as I do them. <

 

Hi All

When I reverse roles and think about my daughter learning how to be a woman of character and integrity from a man, I cringe. I have no desire even attempting letting her learning womanhood from a man. We humans learn 80 to 90 percent of our behaviors from those we see and want to duplicate. A boy will respect the woman for her skills, but that will not have the same impact on him as man with the same skills because we naturally duplicate the behaviors from those we would like to become.

 

Here is a test, pick a sport with an equal male and female sports hero standing next to each other. Then let boys and girls go talk with them. Who do you think they will run to greet?

 

A woman can be as good a Scoutmaster, if not better, as a man in all but one area, "Modeling a man of character and integrity". Is there a difference? You bet, boys and girls are different and mature differently. For normal growth in behavoir, boys need male role models just as much a girls need female role models. Watching the male SM respect a woman of equal or greater skills has a lot more positive character impact on a boy than a woman SM respecting a male of equal or greater skills.

 

It's not about equal respect or skills; it's about human nature and genders duplicating genders. It's not really a choice, it is our nature. Now if a troop has trouble accepting female leaders, then they are missing the big picture and the scouts will miss out from the opportunity.

 

As for more women in Cubs, a lot of it has to do with the structure of the program. Up until lately, den meetings worked naturaly with stay home moms. And, women are comfortable with the cub type activities, at least until Webelos. But at least in our area, I see a lot more dads taking on the Den leader roles. I think it's more because mothers are working now and den meetings are being planned for the evening instead of after school.

 

Just a few thoughts.

 

I love this Scouting stuff

 

Barry

 

[SagerScout 10]

Eagledad -

 

In a lot of ways, in our society as it now exists, I think it is easier for a woman to model self-sufficiency and independence and camp skills - the "masculine" traits - than it is for a man to model the nurturing traits more often associated with the "feminine" side. However, it can be done to everyone's benefit. One of the finest Girl Scout leaders in my area is a dad. His wife is sadly quite severely disabled with ALS, and it has thus fallen to him to be the Girl Scout dad for his daughters. He's great. His troop loves him. His daughters are growing into some of the sweetest and loveliest young ladies around. (Robert, I don't know if you read this board but go ahead and blush if you must - you are the greatest. )

 

For all those that wonder, he is a BYOT dad (bring your own tent) and no one that knows him has ever had a moments concern about him camping near the girl's units. Our camp does designate "men's" latrines when there are men on a campout.

 

If we could register another dozen men like him the program would be infinitely better off. But I really don't know where we could find even one more, at least right now. Maybe, though, things could change for the better as he blazes a trail...just as some ornery women that I've never met blazed the trail for me in the BSA a few years ago.

 

Julia

 

 

[Eagledad 2777]

>>If we could register another dozen men like him the program would be infinitely better off. But I really don't know where we could find even one more, at least right now.

[BSA470Firstaider 10]

I think your both wrong. YES women should (and are) allowed to go camping or do any other scouting activity. BUT, there is another end you need to look at. While i realise that most of the time the womeon are moms, aunts, etc.. there is still a safety issue. Please let me explain i'm not saying child abuse, or sleeping arangements, I am saying that if an 11 year old boy (going through pubetry) has a question or gets hurt he will be far less likely to go to a women. In working in a health lodge I have a 15 year old ARC First Aid/CPR for the Professional Rescuer had to treat patients because leaders/kids/parents have not felt confortable with the rest of the staff (female) one was an RN, one was a paramedic, and one was an EMT. They by all rights should have treated but in this case the pt. wouldn't let them. Now i am not saying that females shouldn't come, but i do feel that there should be at least one male for emergencies. Other than that all you sexist people out there need to realize that you wouldn't exist without your mom, and apologize to everyone you've ever said that too.

 

-Jeff

SPL/ Firstaider

15 years old

[ghostdancer 10]

I have been scouting for nearly 13 years or better. I have my own scout troop. I for one would welcome a female leader into the troop. I haven't problem with women as leaders, I have a problem with the women leaders who are on their own cruisade to change the face of scouting to what they feel scouting should be all about, throwing many years of tradition out the window and writing their own curriculum.