Cub Scout Only Buildings

[evmori 11]

Has anyone else run into this problem.

 

In my council, two of our camps have buildings that have been designated "Cub Scout Only". This limits the number of buildings available to Troops during the winter months. I have been told this is according to National policy. (Bob White, please chime in).

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[Bob White 20]

"Policy" is probably not the correct term.

 

There is a program and service emphasis that has been very successful in many councils; to have fewer camps and better defined, better developed, program areas designed to suit a specific program. When my parents were den leaders, back in the 60s, our basement was decorated in scouting stuff.

 

Half the room had cub scout stuff, half had boy scout stuff. My mothers den met on the cub side and when my dad's Webelos den met they were on the Boy Scout side.

 

My parents understood the need for seperate and unique program areas. If the whole thing was Cub Scouts, the Webelos would be bored. If the whole thing was Boy Scouts, the cubs would have nothing to look forward to.

 

There is a similar camp fascilities philosophy, to create separate and unique program areas. The camping fascilities for Cubs are often far less spartan than Boy Scout camping areas. The reason is the same as my parents basement. The Boy Scouts are beyond the need for such comforts and need to be more adventurous in there outdoor activities in order to make use of the skills they are learning. Cubs are now encouraged to camp often, but in a "family style" more sheltered environment that is more in keeping with their skill level and to keep the adventure of Boy Scouting unique and separated from their program.

 

It has been a very successful program approach and is being adopted by more and more councils all the time. I know of no "policy" (strict governing rule)in place to force a council to do choose this path.

 

Hope this helps,

Bob White

 

 

 

[ScouterPaul 11]

Our Council has two camps. There is not a formal rule but they attempt to get the Packs to use the smaller of the two camps. The larger reservation is where the Boy Scout Summer Camp is held.

 

It seems to work okay for us.

[evmori 11]

Bob,

What is National's policy regarding Cubs Scouts/Webelos using cabins in BSA owned camps?

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[Bob White 20]

Aside from safety regulations, I don't know of any "policies" that national has within a council's camp. Policies, as they effect units fall in 3 main categories; safety, uniform, and advancement.

 

Remember that the council owns and operates local council camps not national.

 

Also I don't worry about administration actions between national and council. I only worry about program elements that affect delivery of scouting. I can't think of a single camp, be it a BSA or non-scouting camp, that would have an effect on my ability to deliver a quality program if it were to close or if I were denied some or total use of it.

 

Bob

[evmori 11]

Bob,

According to my council camping committee, the regs regarding Cub/Webelos use of council building came from National. It sounds to me like someone is blowing smoke you know where!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[Bob White 20]

Again, it is probably just a program recommendation they are following. Why is it so important that a Boy Scout Troop get to use Cub Scout program facilities?

Bob

[evmori 11]

The facilities were at one time for both Boy & Cub Scouts. A little history regarding one of the buildings in question:

 

My district uses on of our camps quite a bit. This camp was a summer camp until the new summer camp was built(1979). After that, it has been used for weekend trips & camporees. There are 3 cabins and a dining hall on the property.

 

After the new summer camp was opened, the dining hall wasn't used and was relegated as a storage building. A bunch of adults in my district liked the building & decided to clean it out & fix it up so it is usable again. This took a couple years of volunteer work & donated supplies. Finally, we finished and now we have (had) a building that will sleep 50 Scouts, has 2 separate adult room that will sleep 4 each, full plumbing (including a shower) and a full kitchen complete with walk-in freezer. Remember, all this was done by BOY SCOUT volunteers.

 

Last year our council camping director (he is no longer with our council) proclaimed this building was now designated as "Cub Only". He told us this was according to National policy. Boy Scout troops are no longer allowed to use this building whether the Cubs are using it or not. Remember all the work done on this building was done by BOY SCOUT VOLUNTEERS!

 

So there is my reason for the question.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[Weekender 10]

Ed,

 

You may have already done this but if not maybe bringing the issue up at the roundtable could help. If enough people, who are aware of the lack of any such national policy, put pressure on the council perhaps they would change their position.

 

Weekender

[evmori 11]

weekender,

Yep we already did that.

 

Thanks,

Ed

[Bob White 20]

Evmori,

I don't mean to sound snide but, if I understand it right you and some other volunteers worked on some council property and now feel that you should be able to use it as you see fit forever. The work wasn't done to help the program, just the ones who worked on it?

 

Look at it this way, if you had not done that work, the council would have remodeled that building for Cub use anyway once it became a Cub Scout camp. Your situation would be no different than it is today. You would simply not have done a Good Turn for the council.

 

On the otherhand, by the volunteers remodeling that building, the council did not have to spend as much money converting it to a Cub Scout camp and so they had more money available for the NEW Boy Scout camp. You Won.

 

Your council is trying to develop better program facilities for the boys not punish the adults. I would hope you do council service projects for the same reason.

 

The council has to look big picture and long range, as unit leaders we look at more immediate needs. You have a new Boy Scout camp to enjoy, you have not been deprieved of anything other than a building you helped repair. That does not give you user rights, just bragging rights, and the warm feeling that you helped the program to grow and improve. Should't that be enough?

 

Bob

[AdvanceOn 10]

Hey Ed:

 

Have you talked to the new camping director? He's apparently on board now as of last week -- Kevin somebody. I haven't met him but heard about him at National Camping School last weekend.

 

For the rest of you, if I'm understanding Ed's concern -- why should a building be left unused when cubs aren't using it? I'm sure there is a sense of "ownership" since they did so much of the work, partly with the expectation that it would be a great place for them. Sounds to me like making it a cub scout only building was an afterthought of the camping director. Camping space is still tight for all of us in this council. Restrictions like these are an unneeded frustration.

[evmori 11]

AdvanceOn,

His name is Kevin Dowling & I met him for the 1st time last night. The building in question is Nemacolin Lodge at Camp Anawanna. I didn't discuss it with him since it was the 1st time I met him.

 

Bob,

 

Ownership is not an issue. The issue is why should the Boy Scouts be prevented from using a building at a council camp if no one else is using it? This camp is not a "Cub Scout Camp". In my council, we don't have separate camps for Boy & Cub Scouts.

 

If we hadn't done the work, our old camping director had plans to bulldoze the building. And yes, the work was done for the program.

 

Yes we have an excellent Boy/Cub summer camp. There are 2 Boy Scout camps & a Cub/Webelos camp at Heritage Reservation. There are house that are used for staff with families during the summer & these houses are also rented out to other organizations. Boy Scout Troops are NOT allowed to rent these houses for their Troop.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[Bob White 20]

As you said ed "The facilities were at one time for both Boy & Cub Scouts.'

 

That was then this is now. Things change. it sounds to me like the council is following the program plan that, as I said before, many councilks throughout the country are going to. Separaste facilities for the different programs. This gives each age group new experiences, it allows program elements at the different facilities to be targeted to a specific program need. You have not been denied all buildings, just the ones for Cubs Scouts. In the Councils using this method the Cubs are almost always reatricted from the facilities set aside for Boy Scouts only.

 

At our council camps there are facilities for summer camp staff that are only used by the camp staff. the rest of the year no one can use them. They have a specific purpose and cub and troop camping are not part of it. We have other resources as I am sure you do.

 

This is not a bad thing, it's just new and change requires patience and a larger view of things.

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

[evmori 11]

Bob,

I think you are missing the point. The camp can and is used by Boy/Cub Scouts. This specific building has been designated as "Cub Only". By facilities I was referring to this specific building. Now here's the rub - when a Boy Scout camporee is held, we are allowed to use the building!

 

There is another camp where the same situation exists & this camp is used for Woodbadge. And like I stated in a previous post, none of our council camps are Boy/Cub only. They can be used by either.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1