Another article about the Ten Commandments

[sctmom 11]

Bradley County Commission rejects request to post Islamic tenets

 

By The Associated Press

March 30, 2002

 

CLEVELAND, Tenn. - Bradley County, one of several Tennessee counties that voted recently to post the Ten Commandments, has been asked to extend its endorsement of religious documents in public places to include the Five Pillars of Islam.

 

The county commission has been asked several times by Rachel Cate, a student at Cleveland High School, to post the Islamic document alongside the Old Testament one.

 

"This is not only a Christian nation but a nation for everyone," Cate told the commission at its most recent meeting last week. "I think it is discriminatory not to decide on the Five Pillars of Islam just as you decided on the Ten Commandments."

 

The commission has so far declined to grant Cate's request.

 

"At this point we have our agendas full, and there's no point in the immediate future to address that," Commission Chairman Mike Smith told Cate.

 

Smith said he respects Cate's beliefs but believes that it would be inappropriate to post the Five Pillars, particularly since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks that have been blamed on Islamic extremists..

 

One of the commissioners, Howard Thompson, debated with Cate during her last appearance over whether there are five or six pillars, contending the sixth pillar is "jihad," or holy war.

 

There are actually five pillars, not six, according to The Columbia Encyclopedia.

 

The five pillars are ascribed to Muhammad. Jihad is a duty of the devout.

 

The encyclopedia defines jihad as an exertion on behalf of God, at both the personal and community level. At the personal level it denotes an individual's struggle to be righteous.

 

Cate has contacted the American Civil Liberties Union in Tennessee. The ACLU's executive director, Hedy Weinberg, said she appreciates Cate's efforts, although the organization would oppose actually posting the Five Pillars of Islam for the same reasons it opposes posting the Ten Commandments.

 

"Rachel Cate asked them to post another religious document in the hope of having them understand that county governments cannot and should not promote one religious doctrine over another," Weinberg said. "Any county commission needs to recognize their responsibility is to uphold religious freedom for all people in their community."

 

Weinberg said the state chapter resorts to lawsuits only as a last resort. It has sued Hamilton County, which is next to Bradley County, over its decision to post the Ten Commandments in a public building.

 

"Our goal is to help the Bradley County Commission understand they are, in fact, eroding religious freedom rather than promoting it when they post the Ten Commandments," Weinberg said. "The commission's refusal to even consider her proposal makes it clear the commission is using its power to promote one religious doctrine over others."

 

 

[evmori 11]

I was watching "The American President" (one of my favorite movies) last night. During Michael Douglas's speech neat the end of the movie he defines freedom of speech very will. He says (I might not get this exactly correct) the freedom of speech is letting someone scream at the top of their lungs something you abhor and would spend a lifetime screaming at the top of your lung to defend.

 

That said, Let them post the Pillars of Islam. I don't agree with Islamic beliefs and would spend my lifetime defending mine.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[Rooster7 11]

Hey, that is a great movie. It's slightly slanted to the left...but hey, I can suspend reality for the sake of some cheap entertainment. All kidding aside, I liked the movie (but not the politics or rather its unfair portrayal of conservative politics).

 

As for this debate, I wouldn't have a problem with the posting of the "Five Pillars of Islam" as long as the government showed its historical significance to this country or that particular area of the country. Since Christians founded this country, I believe the Ten Commandments qualify as being historically significant to the United States. It is the basis for most laws that were originally established in this nation.

 

As to this being an issue of "separation of church and state". First, this phrase, which the ACLU has come to know and love, is not in the Constitution. It's in a letter from Thomas Jefferson. He wrote it to a minister, who he was trying to assure. Jefferson told the minister that the state would not and should not interfere with the business of the church. His letter never addressed the issue of whether or not the church should ever influence the state.

 

The Constitution does say that the state shall not establish a church. However, I stand convinced that this action (posting the Ten Commandments) is not tantamount to establishing a church. In fact, as I read the Constitution, the state can (if it chooses to do so) endorse religion. Furthermore, by my reading, it could even endorse a specific religion. The line that was drawn is one of "forced religion". In other words, the state cannot penalize or reward individuals for having a particular faith (or no faith at all). Nevertheless, this tenant was not meant to hinder all public expressions of religion. No one is penalized or rewarded by the posting of a creed.

 

However, as of this writing, I must admit that I am of a minority opinion (at least on the Supreme Court). Nevertheless, it's not the first time a group of men misinterpreted another group of men. As wise as those gentlemen may be, I believe the Supreme Court is fallible. Given enough time, I can find numerous other intellectuals and experts in the law to back up my assertion. Yet, I will refrain, because I merely wish to register my opinion today (not start "a contest of the wills").

 

[sctmom 11]

By the way, here are the Five Pillars of Islam.

 

The Testimony of Faith

The testimony of faith is saying with conviction, "La ilaha illa Allah, Muhammadur rasoolu Allah." ("There is no true god but God, and Muhammad is the Messenger of God.") The testimony of faith is the most important pillar of Islam.

 

Prayer

Muslims perform five prayers a day. The Prophet Muhammad said: Bilal, call (the people) to prayer, let us be comforted by it. (Bilal was one of Muhammad's companions). Prayers are performed at dawn, noon, mid-afternoon, sunset, and night.

 

Giving Zakat (Support of the Needy)

All things belong to God, and wealth is therefore held by human beings in trust. For most purposes, this involves payment each year of 22 percent of one's capital.

 

Fasting the Month of Ramadan

Every year in the month of Ramadan, all Muslims fast from dawn until sundown, abstaining from food, drink, and sexual relations.

 

The Pilgrimage to Makkah (Mecca)

The annual pilgrimage (Hajj) to Makkah is an obligation once in a lifetime for those who are physically and financially able to perform it.

 

 

 

[NJCubScouter 1389]

OK Rooster, after I had read 90 percent of your post, my answer to your comments about why "separation church and state" is read into the Establishment Clause was going to be, "because a majority of the Supreme Court says so." But you did get around to that at the very end. There are a lot of things the Constitution is interpreted to say that it does not literally say. The First Amendment says nothing about "expressive association," and yet James Dale is not an Assistant Scoutmaster. Article III says nothing about the U.S. Supreme Court being able to reverse a STATE supreme court's interpretation of STATE election law, and legal scholars generally agree that they can't, and yet George Bush is the president. More esoterically, the Eleventh Amendment says you can't sue another state's government in federal court, and says nothing about sovereign immunity, and yet a majority of the Supreme Court says it means you can't sue your own state government in federal court. And there are a lot of other examples. In the world of constitutional interpretation, you win a few and you lose a few, and I would say that in the last 20 years and particularly the last 10, your side of the political spectrum has won a few more (or more than a few more) that it has lost.

 

As for local governments wanting to post the Ten Commandments for its historical significance, if you really believe that, the Brooklyn Bridge is less than an hour's drive from my house and I would be happy to turn over the deed for the right price. However, I suspect that you are well aware that the reason these governments want to display the Ten Commandments is for its religious significance. I agree with the ACLU that neither the Ten Commandments, nor the Five Pillars of Islam, nor the laws of Kashruth (some of the other 500+ commandments from Exodus and Leviticus followed by ultra-Orthodox Jews), nor the Twelve Steps to Nirvanah (I made that last one up but you know what I mean), belong posted on public property. Let them post the Declaration of Independence instead.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Actually Post the Declaration of Independence in a prominent spot in the court house/whatever?

 

Now is that a concept we can all agree on or what?

[ScouterPaul 11]

I can live with the Declaration of Independence.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

By the way, I liked "The American President" the first and probably the second time I saw it (both on tv.) My enthusiasm has waned after someone bought the tape for my wife (most probably me, as a gift), and my wife and daughters proceeded to watch it for the third, fourth, tenth, whatever-eth time. Over time, it has dawned on me that it is basically a love story with the political stuff tacked on, and I can only take a love-story movie once, if at all. (Notice I avoided using the term "chick flick.")

 

And also by the way, though I agreed ideologically with almost all of the liberal-leaning political comments made by the Michael Douglas character, I did have to wince at the naivete of some of his statements. I guess the one that really got me was when he is discussing gun control and says "we're going to get the guns." I doubt that any national politician, no matter how pro-gun-control, would say it quite that way with any hope of being elected again. (That was not, repeat not a comment about gun control, so back away slowly from the keyboard. It's just a movie review.)

[slontwovvy 10]

And for a long time, our states had no problems supporting churches--I believe it was Massachusetts that kept doing it well into the 1840's.

[evmori 11]

If I'm not mistaken, the reason for the James Dale decision had nothing to do with the 1st Ammendment. It dealt with the freedom of association.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Ed Mori says:

 

If I'm not mistaken, the reason for the James Dale decision had nothing to do with the 1st Ammendment. It dealt with the freedom of association.

 

Ed, "freedom of association" (and its varieties, including the right of "expressive association") is one of the rights guaranteed by the First Amendment. Here is the first sentence of the official Supreme Court summary of the Dale decision:

 

Held: Applying New Jerseys public accommodations law to require the Boy Scouts to admit Dale violates the Boy Scouts First Amendment right of expressive association.

 

The entire summary (called a "syllabus," which in every profession besides the law means something different), is located at http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-699.ZS.html

That page also has links to the actual opinions in the case.

[evmori 11]

I stand corrected. Thanks NJ!

[le Voyageur 72]

Personally, I could care less about where the Ten Commandements should, or should not be posted.

But, what is most interesting about the Commandments was an oversight that altered the course of human history for the worse.

Is it not odd that for a people who had broken free from the bonds of slavery, did not see the need, nor received a commandment against slavery?

Tends to be one of those "what if" questions that opens a pandora's box since it infers a God of hindsights....kinda wonder how Aquanis would of handed this one?