Broken Rules and

[Bob White 20]

I'm probably going to get all kinds of flak for this but here goes (I'm guessing you posted this on a forum board to generate discussion).

 

Not to suggest that anything other then (as you admit) a major poloicy was violated in that tent. I need to ask, where were the other adults sleeping. Was there no possible combination of sleeping arrangements to protect both you and the scout from harm? Maybe someone would have to be awakened and moved.

If an adult who had a son present had both used your tent, that would allow you to sleep in place of that adult in an adult tent. Everyone protected from the elements, no youth protection violated.

 

I realize that you feel perfectly justified. But if are are ever involved in a youth protection incident you will find that the adult always has a reason for the violation. I heard an adult give what he thought was a perfectly reasonable explanation for having a lockin with no other adult present. He is no longer eligible to be in scouting ..anywhere...ever again. This is not a rule that the program takes lightly. Had word of what you had done reached a District Commissioner or District or Council Executive, you would more than likely have been removed from the program. Wouldn't some communication among the adults found a way to do what was needed without endangering the scouts safety or your reputation?

 

I realize this is not something you let happen again, my concern is that others reading this and just learning the program might say "Oh, well see, there are circumstances when violating Youth Protection is OK".

 

Bob

[Rooster7 11]

Bob,

 

I love you man...but you're response to eisely is exactly why I started this thread.

 

Of course eisely recognizes the seriousness of the rule. Nevertheless, he also recognized the seriousness of his particular situation. Perhaps, there was a better way...And if he overlooked an obvious solution, then perhaps BSA would have sought his expulsion. However, barring a clear-cut alternative, I vehemently disagree with your conclusion. I submit that BSA and its councils have more common sense than you give them credit for. Certainly, if it did come to light, there would have been a thorough investigation. Given his circumstance, I'm confident that eisely would have been exonerated.

 

"Oh, well see, there are circumstances when violating Youth Protection is OK".

 

Obviously, a rule is a rule. Yet, every case is different. Common sense, a.k.a. judgment, is sometimes necessary and can be contradictory to a policy or rule. If you're on a deserted road and your son is bleeding to death, do you violate the speed limit? I realize this is an extreme example, but it illustrates my point. Adult leaders should be held accountable, but that doesn't mean that we should put blinders on. If I'm a policeman and I pull over the speeding driver in my example, I'm going to give me escort to the nearest hospital. I'm not going to lecture him on speeding laws.

 

[Bob White 20]

rooster7,

 

The difference in your scenario is that you are speeding down the road with your own son in the car.

Try speeding down the road with a bleeding child who isn't yours and the parents don't know that you are alone with him. Suddenly the story doesn't sound so noble.

 

You have no idea how a parent wil react from what you see you as a samaritan act. Also child abuse is not always reported by the child immediately. Sometimes the facts do not surface for years and by that time dozens of boys or more could be abused. It would be irresponsible of the BSA to not to take every violation seriously or to accept every reasonable excuse. beleive me every body has a reasonable excuse.

 

If you think the punishment is severe, it is. Youth safety is paramount to all of us.

 

Any violation will have a high price and for good reason.Violations of Youth Protection Policies endangers our scouts, the reputation of volunteers and the reputatuion of the scouting program. It just isn't worth it.

 

I think you underestimate the BSA's resolve in the area of youth protection. As a parent I would not want it any other way.

 

Bob

[Dedicated Dad 10]

Ya know Rooster, on the very same page [134] that has the hard and fast rule for Separate Accommodations is a paragraph for the SM which validates his imperfections and mortal capabilities. It says: Give yourself permission to make mistakes. I like your speeding example but I would offer this as its more to the point; if a scoutmaster and scout are lost in the woods and they only have one tent, lets make the temperature below freezing, what accommodations should the SM and scout make?

[Bob White 20]

DD

 

What was a scoutmaster doing in the woods alone with a scout? Where was the scouts buddy? Where was the second adult?

 

Evidendly following rules and protecting scouts from abuse are not part of the values you hold so dear. I would have expected you of all people to show no compassion for human error.

 

So let me get this straight, you feel a scout with an extra hole in his ear lobe has severe character flaws, but an adult who wanders off into the woods with someone elses child is "to be given permission to make mistakes".

 

I'm sorry, you don't beleive in feelings you to told us. So you must have given this some deep thought and come to this conclusion through pure logic.

 

DD I find that truly scarey.

[Dedicated Dad 10]

Evidendly following rules and protecting scouts from abuse are not part of the values you hold so dear. Wow Bob, thats a new low. Im sorry my example has you so flustered and apparently out of the realm of any imaginable scenario in your neat and tidy little world but youre out of control. Shame on you.

 

 

[eisely 13]

Just to continue the story I started...

 

There may have been alternatives. By the time I was considering bedding down for the night, I was so disgusted, exhausted, and angry that it did not occur to me to find out what the accomodations of the two other adults, who were already asleep, were. I had spent the evening trudging from patrol camp site to patrol camp site checking on the boys, and doing what I could, to pay much attention to the other adults.

 

Since training so often comes up in these threads, I should point out that that council had no winter camping (Okpik) training available. I was still relatively new to scouting as an adult and deferred to other adults who had been with the troop much longer than I.

 

One of the other ASMs who did not go on the outing heard all about it from his son and called me up quite angrily. When I told him the full story he calmed down a bit. He also commented on the tent rule, but agreed that, under the circumstances I had done the smart thing. Our next committee meeting was the best attended committee meetine we ever had. The whole thing was discussed thoroughly. The fact that I took a scout into my tent never came up.

[Rooster7 11]

I think you underestimate the BSA's resolve in the area of youth protection. As a parent I would not want it any other way.

 

By that mantra, your neighbor's kid bleeds to death. I don't care whose kid it is, I'm getting him to the hospital as fast as I reasonably can, even if it means speeding. I'm not suggesting that BSA accepts every excuse. However, a reasonable excuse that's backed by witnesses, available evidence, and common sense, should have some merit.

 

Any violation will have a high price and for good reason. Violations of Youth Protection Policies endangers our scouts, the reputation of volunteers and the reputation of the scouting program. It just isn't worth it.

 

Your stance borders on legalism. The means (follow the rules) justifies the end (dead kid). As long as I followed the rules, I'm blameless. I don't believe that is the standard for which we are called to follow. Letting my neighbor's kid bleed to death because I'm afraid of litigation or expulsion by BSA is not only less noble, it is a coward's answer to a difficult situation.

 

This brings me back to a statement that I made in another thread. Is BSA a religion or a boys program? Sorry if I offend any true believers, but it's a boys programa very good one at that, but still it's a program. If my God tells me that I need to do more, I willeven if that means I have to break a BSA rule.

 

BTW, the pretences, which you imposed in my example and DD's, is just mudding the waters. There are all sorts of innocent reasons, which could explain either one. These reasons do not nullify the examples. For the sake of discussion-

 

My example: A car accident disables or kills the other adult. If you truly want to get ridiculous, please assume the proper tour permits were completed.

 

DD's example: The second adult, who knows his way around the woods better than the first, suffers a heart attack and cannot be of help. The kid doesn't have a buddy because he went into the woods alone, which is why the two adults went after him.

 

This can become inane. If you disagree, fine. Give us a logical answer, but please do not create facts just to give credence to a failing argument.

 

[Bob White 20]

rooster7

 

I think the info of your second post is a better message to give new leaders then one of "there are times when it's OK to break rules".

 

1. Good scout requires training. Had the other adults been as conscientous about careing for the scouts or had they known how to prepare for a campout, this situation would have been avoided

 

2. Parents don't want the rules violated (your parent calmed down, but that doesn't mean they all will).

 

3. There are always options.

 

4. Adults are reponsible for scouts welfare. The lack of leadership from the other adults helped place you in a position of expulsion or worse.

 

I'm glad things turned out OK foro you and the scout. But I really hope the message you want to convey to readers is "plan ahead don't let this happen to you" rather than "sometimes you need to break the rules".

 

Bob

[OldGreyEagle 5]

IMHO, (used it 4 times now) this is how I see the latest "match" between Dad and Bob

 

Bob shoots, Dad deflects, but doesnt answer the question...

 

Adults get permission to make mistakes but the hole in the ear thing is a character flaw?

 

Lucy (thats you Dad) you have some splainin to do !

[Bob White 20]

DD and rooster 7,

 

I was operating within the constraints of your made up tales. How was I supposed to know that your ficticious Scoutmaster had a ficticious assistant who had a ficticious heart attack.

 

In that case go ahead and into the woods for the lost scout. Before you go though, grab the make believe cell phone and get the invisible ambulance to come help the assistant before he plays dead.

 

Now if we can all join the real world. In the real world kids get hurt. They get hurt by people they trust like family members, religious leaders, neighbors, and yes, scout leaders. take a look at the words in Bold type face in the Guide to Safe Scouting. They identify the activities and behaviors that will most likely result in scouts being injured or abused. They are the unbreakable policiies of BSA Youth Protection and Safety.

 

When you cross those lines you make the choice to put someone elses child in danger. What gives you that right? Parents do not entrust their children to your care so that you can blatantly disregard their safety.

 

"Broken rules or bad leadership?"

 

Definitely Bad Leadership.

 

and DD non of your corkscrew style debate will change my mind or anyone elses.

 

Bob

[eisely 13]

Bob,

 

You addressed your most recent post to Rooster, but I think you meant to address it to me. You are right that better planning and training could have avoided the entire situation. Since I was new to my responsibilities to scouting, as I mentioned, I began with the assumption that the more experienced leaders had every thing in hand. Be all that as it may, when I was faced with the situation I was faced with, I remain comfortable that I handled it in the most intelligent way possible.

 

Future snow camping events in the that troop were done quite differently as a result of that experience.

 

Bob, I respect you knowledge a great deal. You are a great resource to the forum and to scouting. However, I agree with others that I find you too rigid. Your suggestion that I would have been expelled from scouting based on that action, that was undertaken to provide safety to myself and the scout, is rather severe. While I appreciate your views, I am glad that you are not making those kinds of decisions in our council.

[Rooster7 11]

Car accidents and heart attacks are just as real as child molesters. All three are every day occurrences. The examples we gave were plausible. Given your response, I sure hope that you are never put in a position where you feel like a rule is preventing you from doing the right thing. On the other hand, if you feel it is okay for a kid to bleed to death, I suppose that may never be a problem for you.

 

I find you too rigid is an understatement.

[Dedicated Dad 10]

So Bob, what you are saying is that no positive scenario can possibly exist, of any kind, that a Scoutmaster can ever be lost in the woods with a scout? None? No possibility what so ever?

 

And OGE, What on earth are you talking about? I need a few more sentences on the details for clarification of the Lucy thing please. Plus, you remind me the kids surrounding the schoolyard fight yelling Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! I expected better from you.

 

PS What is corkscrew style debate mean anyway?

[Bob White 20]

You are right eisely, my apologies to you and rooster7 for that error.

 

I appreciate that you would not want me making those decisions.

 

But take yourself out of the tent and put another adult in. Years later you find out out that something did happen. You would wish that something had been done to protect that scout and any others that followed.

You said there were witnesses. No there weren't. You yourself said no one else was in that tent but a child and a non-relative adult, and that everyone else was asleep. The scouting program isn't going to wade through the myriad of excuses told by leaders who could of or did abuse children. You are told right upfront in bold letters Don't do this!. If you do it it's your choice but don't act surprised at the cosequences. The BSA is not kidding about this.

 

As a District Commissioner I was involved in a few cases and I tell you now, the councils hands are pretty much tied on this. Even if nothing happened, the fact that you would transgress such a vital rule would make you a danger to the boys we serve and you would most likely be removed.

You may not want me making these decisions but there are Thousands of families who want these rules in place and they want them enforced.

 

Bob