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tjhammer

Scouting's Real Gay Policy

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Trail Pounder, ya know you might have something there. After re-reading some of that stuff one has to wonder.

 

Well, I do see certain similarities between what the gay rights activists did in their early years of establishment to what the boy love activists are attempting to do now.

 

A constant argument homosexuals use is that they were born into it. Homosexuals slowly tried to change public opinion into believing that they had no choice in the matter. They got it removed from the list of psychological diseases. They waged a major public relations campaign to appear as the victim. They pursued to change public opinion through peer pressure, so that if you said anything against them, everyone should consider you a bigot, homophobe, or simply intolerant. Then they sought out our institutions, our government, and our schools in an attempt to create laws and mandate public opinion.

 

What is to stop pedophiles from doing the same? What if some scientist says pedophilia is genetic? They are already trying to get it removed from the list of diseases. PR campaigns (partly helped by the press) are already trying to diminish the felony as just a natural occurrence of love. Corporations like Amazon seem to think theres nothing wrong with putting that kind of sludge on their Web site.

 

I know that homosexuals want to steer far clear from the pedophilia group, but the similarities are quite noticeable. If gays can argue the case, I see no reason why boy lovers cant do the same I know that some homosexuals claim there is a big difference between them and pedophiles. I guess I wonder where that line is drawn. Is it at age 18? How about 16? Well, some kids are getting tried as adults at 12 or 13, does that give you justification to drop down to the same age level? Just wondering where that line is drawn.

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Wow - nope didn't mean to suggest anything similar between BSA and KKK - I am suggesting that the BSA is excluding good people, not on action but because of a interpretation of the Bible - I'm sorry for any insult I may have implied.

 

I have obviously devoted too much time and have gotten wrapped up in my feelings of rejection this week. It was a bit of a sharp stick to the eye.

 

Nothing will compare to the pain caused by our need to divorce. Nothing. So, I would do just about anything to avoid even more pain for my kids - which is why I'm not going to make a fuss with the Scouts. I did appreciate the ability to address my frustration on this list and please know that I would never lump or judge any of you together in any other way except for your sincere devotion to Scouting. I thank you for the outlet.

 

I am not an activist but, until I met Judy Shepard, I never really said much. Her wish is that someday they will show the last 3/4ths of the Pride Parade that is where the everyday people march, who happen to be Gay. She suggested that if the people in your community do not know that hard working, community involved, church going, devoted fathers, can also be Gay, they will only think of Gay people as the extremists marching in the front of the Pride Parades. That would be a shame. This is Mrs. Shepards link:

 

http://www.matthewshepard.org/

 

As far as my wife, she didn't realize what I was going through. She is a most awesome woman who has remained by my side as my best friend - something we should have perhaps never compromised with marriage except that we share two amazing kids. We decided it would be healthier for all of us and it has. She has not found a new partner but as is common with "straight spouses", when they do, they find there is nothing to compare to being with someone who loves you to someone who "is in-love" with them. I was lucky to have an incredible person come into my life and for my first time, I am "in-love" - it is totally different. P.S. I never cheated nor would I have.

 

Peace,

 

Phil

 

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So do you think that the Boy Scouts of America vs. Dale Trial was wrong or right?

 

Personally I think it is really sad that if people are gay and in scouts they have to hide it. That is basicall saying that you are ashamed of who you are. Why make someone hide a lifestyle? Why make someone Hide what they believe and what they are just to protect themselves?

 

What I hate is that people refuse to accept homosexuals. But the thing is Homosexuality has been around for so long, that it should be time that people realize that it IS NOT going away! By making it so Gays can't join scouting is just like segregating the blacks and whites. They get the harrasment, and negativeness that went on in the 50s and 60s and 70s. Why try to change things when it is alot easier to accpet them??

 

Why can't people realize that not all gays are pedophiles and little boy rapest. Sometimes you can learn alot from a gay person.

 

Look to you left....look to your rigth? How do you know if the person that would be sitting next to you is gay or not? You don't! Someone can be the coolest person in the world. And have everything that you've ever wanted...but you come to find out they are gay and then you want nothing to do with that person anymore. Do you think that is morally right? Of Course not! Why judge someone if you have no control over them?

 

I got a letter from my council a while back saying that they were not going to have a certain county belonging to a chapter anymore. Mainly because this county has an extrememly large gay population. Why punish people for things beyond there control?

 

Accept some one for who they are! NOT who they sleep with!

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"They can have moral fibers and exceed every standard ever set by the BSA and loose it all when they realize they are Gay."

 

Now honestly, they haven't exceeded EVERY standard have they? Because one of the standards is that they not be avowed homosexuals.

 

If the reason so many gay men have scouting backgrounds is due to an effort to overcompensate then they weren't ever really in the program for the right reason to begin with were they?

 

I think most people thing that being gay and being nice are not mutually exclusive, but that is not the issue here. The issue is does being nice over rule all other value traits. Is being nice the sole criteria that scouting loks at to determine an individuals ability to deliver the mission of this particular private program? The volunteers and organizations that determine the membership of the BSA have said no. That there are specific values that either belong or don't belong in our membership.

 

Your son is welcomed by the BSA, and so are you, as long as you choose not to make your sexuality a public issue. But if making your sexuality known is more important to you than being a scout leader for your son you will likely be barred permanently from membership.

 

Bob White

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CrewGirl, not to sound impolite, but did you read a word I said or what anyone else here has said? Or did you just chime in with a question and then announce your opinion?

 

If people are in Scouts and gay there is no need to be sad, just leave. No one is stopping them. They arent being held hostage. Were not asking them to hide if it bothers them they can just leave.

 

I already stated that I would accept homosexuals. But I dont want them camping with my son. I dont want them leading what I believe is a character development program based on a well established unambiguous set of values.

 

I never said gays are pedophiles, however, there is a striking similarity in their agenda and how they are going about trying to change public opinion. No one has yet to answer my question, What if some scientist says pedophiles are born that way?

 

So youre saying that its not morally right for me to not want to associate with someone that I feel is a sinner or does not have similar views on morality? If Im not friends with gay people, then Im not moral? Do I not have a constitutional right to be friends with whomever I choose? Are you telling me that the founders of our great nation established a law without realizing that it might hurt someones feelings? What were they thinking?

 

Im not punishing anyone. We live in America for crying out loud. Land of the free and home of the brave. Youve heard of the place right? The place that everyone has the ability to be who he or she wants to be. Im not stopping anyone from being gay. In fact Scouting has never attacked gays, they attacked us. Their pettiness was so low and their hate for us so high that they sued us, they called us names, they attempted to break apart our framework so that we could not meet, they waged political sabotage campaigns, they tested every facet of our legal system to find the most liberal biased judges to rule against us. And you ask why not accept them instead of trying to change them. That is probably the smartest thing you said, however, you improperly framed the context in which it was used. A better sentence would be For crying out loud, why cant the gays just get over it and accept that the BSA doesnt want them instead of constantly attacking them and just go start their own organization? Im sure thats how you meant to say it.

 

And further, I dont want to tent with a gay person no matter how nice he is.

 

cjmiam

 

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CJ,

 

Every time I'm prompted to reply, you seem to take the words right from my mouth before I can get them out. Keep it up...You're saving me a lot of time and energy. Excellent post!

 

CrewGirl1024,

 

You said, Look to your left....look to your right? How do you know if the person that would be sitting next to you is gay or not? You don't! Someone can be the coolest person in the world...

 

Look to your left...look to your right, I guarantee you that no matter who you are looking at that person has sins and faults. As a Christian, I know every person falls short of God's righteousness and deserves whatever our Lord deems. However, because I cannot see into people's hearts, I must assume that they are repentant beings. I assume that they are making attempts to resist temptation. I assume that they are striving to become better persons. When folks openly proclaim their sin as something to be accepted, or worse something to be celebrated, I can no longer presume that they are resisting evil. In fact, they are embracing it. Gay activists celebrate their sexuality and proclaim it as if it was a badge of honor.

 

If youre totally convinced that homosexuality is not perverse, then try this exercise. Instead of trying to convince me that its normal, try praying. Have that debate with God. Dont just give it lip service. Really try it. Im convinced that if you make a serious attempt to reach out to Him, He will respond. Im also convinced that if you truly listen to Him (as opposed to yourself); He will reveal the truth. When I was in my late teens/early twenties, I had many opinions that I was convinced reflected truth. Then I challenged myself to prove those so-called truths. I destroyed my self-created paradigm of God. I started from scratch. It was scary, but I made many discoveries since then. First and foremost, God may not be who you think He is (or rather, who you create Him to be). Second, God loves those who respond to His call. Third, if youre efforts are not self-serving; He will provide wisdom and guidance.

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Crewgirl, and where in Iowa is this community located that has the large population of homosexuals that were dropped from a Council? Did you keep that letter? Could you post it for us here? I'd like to read it.

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Bob White wrote: "Your son is welcomed by the BSA, and so are you, as long as you choose not to make your sexuality a public issue. But if making your sexuality known is more important to you than being a scout leader for your son you will likely be barred permanently from membership. "

 

I want to be sure I understand this, Bob. Despite the fact that Phil has "come out" regarding his homosexuality, has a male partner, and is open with his son and at least a few members of the community, he still has the opportunity to become a Scout leader as long as he doesn't make his sexuality a "public issue" from this point forward? Did you intend to say that or am I reading it incorrectly?

 

 

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TwoCubDad, I was wondering the same thing about Bob's post. From Phil's posts it seemed like he was already pretty "avowed" -- in real life, not just in this forum.

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I was merely stating the BSA membership policy to Phil, not judging whether or not he met them.

 

BW

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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IMO, Scouting (BSA policy) should not allow avowed homosexuals or heterosexuals. Our (Scouters) sexuality should be of no concern to the Scouts or fellow Scouters. It should not come into play in our dealings with the youth.

 

Granted some view homosexuality in and of itself as sinful. Same with borrowing money, not getting circumcised, eating pork, having one's head uncovered, mental illness, masturbation, divorce, and a boatload of other "ills." Why the BSa has chosen to make a stand on homosexuality is the question. My take, the public relations & potential monetary disaster of having a leader assault a youth member (a la the Catholic Church) is too scary. Right now, that outweighs the current backlash from a vocal minority who challenge the current policy.

 

Let's stop couching the debate behind euphemisms such at "traditional values."

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I have not posted on this board for quite some time, but I guess it's time to come back. I'm glad to see so many familiar names, and so many new ones. My occasional view of postings has showed a continued civility not seen elsewhere.

 

In reading CubScouterFather's posts, I recalled participating in these discussions several years ago, and once I reviewed this topic, I realized it was this very same topic heading. Phil, if you have not read the entire topic, please go to page 2 of this topic, and you will see that I raised your situation, that of scout parents who are gay/lesbian. My view was supported by others then, and I believe that it is the position of many scout leaders and scout units today. Gay/lesbian parents are welcome in many units, and gay/lesbian parents are and will be serving in leadership positions, so long as they are there for the right reason - our sons and their scouting experience. The question of what an "avowed" homosexual is is a tough question, and I believe that BSA has left it vague so that different units can discreetly make their own decisions. Unless I have missed something, BSA has never defined "avowed." In your case, you and your partner are known, but I have taken the position that I will not ask parents about their private sexual activities, whether male/female, male/male or female/female. (So far I have not had a 2 dad or 2 mom family). Short of public pronouncements by the parents, I do not believe that any couple's sexuality is avowed, and will act accordingly. If BSA tells me my understanding is incorrect, I will act according to policy (that was my CYA clause).

 

Phil, I hope that your son does participate in scouting, and that you also participate, at least at the parent level. However, in reading your posts, I have mixed feelings as to whether you are acting solely as a parent or as an activist. I leave my views on this issue totally out of our troop activities, and especially in discussions with our scouts. If you do likewise, I believe that, with the right pack and later troop, both your son and you can have a successful and rewarding experience in scouting.

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Acco40,

 

Let's stop couching the debate behind euphemisms such at "traditional values."

 

If the words "traditional values" is a euphemism, what is it that you think they represent? I ask, not because I believe you have a defendable answer. I ask, because I believe you are posing a straw man argument. You've muddied the waters by making reference to several Old Testament laws that pertain to making oneself Holy and presentable before God. Not that these laws are not important to Jews and some Christian sects, but they are not what one commonly refers to as traditional values. Furthermore, youve referenced some other ideals (such as not borrowing money) that while they may have merit (depending on what faith one embraces), they are not considered bedrock traditional values. Then, shamelessly (sorry, but I really think you stepped over the line on this one), you included mental illness - as if to say, those folks who typically stake claim to traditional values might consider mental illness as a moral deficiency. This is pure hogwash, and at best, a poor and obvious attempt to discredit true traditional values. I am confident that most folks, not looking for a debate, know and understand exactly what traditional values represent. They are the values that most Americans, regardless of religion, embraced at the turn of the previous century. While they are often referred to as Judeo-Christian values, they were universally accepted and embraced by this nation - up until the sixties. At that time, a segment of this society decided that they had evolved, and progressed beyond the collective wisdom of our forefathers and dozens of previous generations. These pseudo-intellectuals tried to challenge and tear down every established principle. To add insult to injury, these misguided ideologues took credit for the civil rights movement and proclaimed all of their causes to be just as righteous. But, I digress. I disagree with your insinuation. Traditional values are not the source of confusion or disagreement. They are real, definable, and worthy of a strong and vigilant defense. These values include the sanctity of marriage, sexual purity, love and devotion to God, love and devotion to family and others, respecting the property of others, and many others. They have strong roots in the Ten Commandments. Our forefathers embraced these values and openly recognized the Bible as an authoritative source to validate them.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

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