public schools as chartering partners

[sctmom 11]

The ACLU has done some good things over the years. A few years ago, I was subletting a mobile home lot to another person. The owner of the mobile home park flat out told me to get rid of her because she was black. Luckily it didn't have to go to a lawsuit, but we were ready to call the ACLU because in a case like that they are needed.

 

I am one of the most liberal posters on this board, the first to stand up for freedom of religion. I think the ACLU has some much bigger battles they could be fighting instead of this. I've been discriminated against because I'm female. I was raised in a family where discrimination is a way of life --- based on race, color, gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc. I've seen both sides.

 

I also see my son coming home from public school with spelling words of Christmas, Santa Claus, and such. I take the time to explain to him that not everyone celebrates Christmas and even some Christians celebrate it differently.

 

I do not currently go to church, but I believe in a "higher power". I do not think that BSA recruiting or being chartered by public schools is a problem. BSA is being attacked because they publicly state their policies. This is very sad. Our school also allows church services in the cafeteria every Sunday morning. I have to meet certain requirements to go to "belong" to that church. And it is more "discriminatory" than BSA.

 

It would be nice if Mr. LeRoy would answer the questions asked of him about his interest in this.

 

Fellow Scouters, I will bow out of this conversation now.

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

 

...

"Schools in my area run FCA groups, fellowship of christian atheletes. This is run at the school by school advisors."

 

If the school actually RUNS the group, that's illegal; but it's probably just allowing it to use school facilities on the same basis as any other group, and would have to allow a fellowship of atheist athletes if people wanted to start one.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

 

...

"I think the ACLU has some much bigger battles they could be fighting instead of this. I've been discriminated against because I'm female. I was raised in a family where discrimination is a way of life --- based on race, color, gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc. I've seen both sides."

 

The ACLU is battling religious discrimination by government agencies; when a public school becomes a chartering partner with the BSA, they are running a "no atheists" youth group, which is unconstitutional. If schools can run "no atheists" groups, they can run "no Jews" youth groups, too.

 

...

"I do not think that BSA recruiting or being chartered by public schools is a problem. BSA is being attacked because they publicly state their policies. This is very sad. Our school also allows church services in the cafeteria every Sunday morning. I have to meet certain requirements to go to "belong" to that church. And it is more "discriminatory" than BSA."

 

The school isn't RUNNING the church services, they are ALLOWING the church to meet on the same basis as any other group, and would have to allow an atheist group to meet also. Find an example where the public SCHOOL is conducting religious services.

 

If the school CHARTERS a BSA group, the SCHOOL is running the group, and is discriminating on the basis of religion.

 

My interest in this is as an atheist (and former scout) who is not going to allow government agencies to discriminate against atheists by chartering thousands of BSA units that exclude atheists.

[Eman 10]

Merlyn Leroy,

I understand exactly what you are saying, and I dare say that I would have to agree with you. I understand that the actual school even though it is thought of as a community school uses federal and state funds to operate and therefore should not charter a Scout troop.

I have a question for you concerning atheism that has nothing to do with this discussion. If you choose not to answer it here I will fully understand. I am asking this question in order to give my 2 children an honest answer abot this. Am I right in believeing that an atheist does not believe in any supreme being? And in that case am I right to believe that an atheist considers the scientific answers to all the questions of the universe? In that belief I am led to understand that an atheist has no belief in mother nature or any spiritual beings. As I stated you can choose not to reply to this to avoid ridicule, my only reason for asking is for better understanding.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

 

...

"Am I right in believeing that an atheist does not believe in any supreme being?"

 

Correct; the simplest definition is "an atheist is not a theist".

 

...

"And in that case am I right to believe that an atheist considers the scientific answers to all the questions of the universe?"

 

No. An atheist is just someone who isn't a theist. An atheist could be completely ignorant of science, or believe in any number of unscientific crackpot ideas.

 

You can't make any other assumptions from a person's atheism; some atheists believe in ghosts, some believe in reincarnation, etc. While these positions aren't common among atheists, you can't assume it. For example, an atheist from India might be more inclined to believe in reincarnation because that's a common belief in India, and it doesn't neccessarily require belief in god(s).

 

Part of the misunderstanding is a common theist assumption that:

 

1) my god is responsible for X

2) this person doesn't believe my god exists

3) therefore, this person must not believe X

 

..when, in fact, someone who doesn't believe in your god may believe X due to other reasons. An atheist can believe in reincarnation, just as long as it doesn't involve gods.

 

If you met someone who believed elves created rainbows, and you said you didn't believe in elves, they might assume you also don't believe in rainbows, even though the connection is only due to THEIR assumptions. THEIR assumptions don't apply to you, just as a theist's assumptions don't apply to an atheist.

[Eman 10]

Merlyn, I'm still confused and would really enjoy pursuing this furthur. In my thinking if I believe in some spiritual power, even though not within the parameters of an "organized" religion, I feel that I believe in God. Even though my idea of what a spiritual being is may differ greatly from what others believe, I still feel that whatever you believe in would fall under the definition of a God.

Now for another question. You say that you were a Scout, are you a Scouter now? Are you involved with the Scouts in any way? Having been associated with the Scouts do you feel it is a good organization for youth? Do you think it would serve more if the "God" requirement was removed? Don't everybody go crazy just yet! This is just a very interesting discussion. I'm quite sure the BSA would stand to lose a large portion of it's membership if it did drop the duty to God, so I don't think it could happen.

 

[cjmiam 10]

I'd rather be camping...

[Eman 10]

cjmiam,

If I was camping I would be having a discussion like this around the campfire!

I was reading a few of your posts and and saw a few things that I didn't agree with. You talked about how the charter organization didn't have any power over the unit. I disagree and if you learn about it you will too. The charter organization is actually the most powerful entity in a unit. If you read an adult membership application you will see that they control the unit.

You also made mention of the United Way. About 8 or 9 years ago I saw a memo from the United Way to the BSA encouraging them to allow more female members (youth) and not discrinate against homosexual leaders.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

 

...

"Even though my idea of what a spiritual being is may differ greatly from what others believe, I still feel that whatever you believe in would fall under the definition of a God."

 

Well, I don't.

 

...

"Now for another question. You say that you were a Scout, are you a Scouter now? Are you involved with the Scouts in any way?"

 

No.

 

...

"Having been associated with the Scouts do you feel it is a good organization for youth?"

 

No; I feel it propagates prejudice against atheists and gays, and is a thoroughly dishonest organization, as shown by its government charters.

 

...

"Do you think it would serve more if the "God" requirement was removed?"

 

Yes. There are WOSM Scouting organizations (such as Switzerland and the Netherlands) where the god references are optional, and atheists are freely admitted.

 

...

"Don't everybody go crazy just yet! This is just a very interesting discussion. I'm quite sure the BSA would stand to lose a large portion of it's membership if it did drop the duty to God, so I don't think it could happen."

 

What if it were optional?

 

The BSA dropped 'duty to god' with regards to Exploring (by moving it into Learning for Life), and I haven't noticed a drop in Explorer membership due to that.

[cjmiam 10]

That's why you won't be camping with my troop.

 

My comment with regard to the chartering org was with reference to the fact that most don't actively involve themselves with the unit. Unless you consider signing a piece of paper and maybe giving some money being actively involved. At least that's how it seems the majority are. It wasn't an argument about having power. And by the way, in my unit the PLC is the most powerful entity. If our chartering org made it their mission to mess with our troop, wed be taking a hike. My original comment was about reality. And talking about reality... Ive come to the realization that some people don't agree with me and checked my conscience and have concluded that I really don't care, because millions like me just the way I am.

 

Have a lovely day and I'd still rather be camping.

 

PS, I dont know what I said about the United Way because Ive said several good and not so good things about them. Personally Id rather give my money directly to the organizations that I believe in, rather than having some allocations committee do it.

 

[Chief Decorah 10]

A short question for clarity...

 

Is being chartered to the school, and being chartered to the Parent Teacher Organization (PTO) of a school, the same thing? Seems to me that being chartered to the PTO would be different, thus allowing latitude in membership, than being chartered to the school itself.

[Bob Russell 10]

Merlyn, you stated: "I feel it propagates prejudice against atheists and gays, and is a thoroughly dishonest organization, as shown by its government charters."

 

The Boy Scouts follow standards that have become unfashionable to many in society, who do not feel we should judge others, yet by condemning Boy Scouts they in themselves judge. I have been a scout leader for many years, and do not believe that we propagate prejudice, as at no time do I or others I deal with in scouting state that athiests or gays are evil or wrong, but that the conducts or beliefs are not consistent with the organization. We teach our scouts to show respect others, and that would include athiests and gays. Boy Scouting never tells other groups what they must believe in, unlike all groups that criticize us. Critics of Boy Scouts are the intolerant individuals and groups.

 

That said, I do believe that schools should not sponsor scouting groups, because of the religious requirement. This would probably cross the line with the constitution. However, as I have stated under another topic, I do believe that restricting scouting from recruiting in schools,even during school hours, when any other outside groups can, is an improper governmental discrimination against religion.

[slontwovvy 10]

Still, I think the ACLU has more important things to do with its time. In my area, a public school invited a group of Tibetian monks to talk about Buddhism at a school assembly. I didn't hear so much as a peep from the ACLU.

 

Our public university distributes funds that the students are required to pay to groups that students do not believe in, such as homosexual activist groups and atheist groups. Several students went to court to stop this; where was the ACLU then?

 

"Any time the minority has MORE rights than the majority, something's wrong."

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

 

...

"I have been a scout leader for many years, and do not believe that we propagate prejudice, as at no time do I or others I deal with in scouting state that athiests or gays are evil or wrong, but that the conducts or beliefs are not consistent with the organization."

 

I disagree, since the DRP (which all BSA leaders must subscribe to) states that only theists can be "the best kinds of citizens"; that directly implies that atheists CAN'T be the best kinds of citizens. I'd say that's teaching prejudice.

 

[evmori 11]

Merlyn_LeRoy,

Can you show me in the Constitution where it states that if a school sponsors a religious group, that's illegal? I have looked & looked & can't find it anywhere.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1