SR540Beaver 116 Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I've been reading some medical websites recently. Anyone needing surgery? I'll do it for half the price your surgeon will charge. Link to post Share on other sites
Beavah 205 Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Yah, somehow I think comparin' BSA online and seat-time training to 10 years of medical school, internship, and surgical residency is a bit much, eh? Link to post Share on other sites
jrush 11 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Sherminator, you made an excellent point: the BSA has a training program developed by professional scouters but implemented by and for volunteers...which invariably creates the problems that have been aired out in this thread. Link to post Share on other sites
moosetracker 132 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 And yet the on-line training is not in-depth enough to be of much use.. We just did a SM/ASM specifics this weekend.. Play the movies for them and the participants laughed.. "OH, yes.. That is a normal troop, every troop runs that smoothly".. We went a little over time, because those in the class would ask questions specifically to pull the instructors into conversations, away from the script. They wanted to hear the stories of examples, and ask how to deal with problems issues.. We got through enough of the script to call it a training, but they were not there for the script.. I had to cancel my cub scout specifics on same day for not enough attendance. Of the 2 who signed up, I gave them the opportunity to take the on-line course for official training. Then the trainer doing their specific break-out was willing to sit down with them and have a casual conversation and show them how to use the new resources.. They were perfectly happy with that.. Link to post Share on other sites
HICO_Eagle 93 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 The analogies aren't apt due to both depth (10 years of rigorous academic and practical work) of study and relevance of the material. If you want to do surgery then of course you need to study biology, physiology, technique, etc. After 20+ years of academic training and practical experience, I'm not convinced you can say the same of the kind of management education that is being pushed. "BSA has a training program developed by professional scouters" ... and your point is? What makes the training program developed by the professional scouters worth anything much less better than the experience of the volunteers implementing it? I took TDC -- about as big a waste of 8 hours of my time as anything else I can recall except I paid for the privilege of missing a hike and wasting a day of my time to take it. The whole "let's build a paper car and race it on a felt board" thing was childish. Want me to stop resenting the mandatory training? Quit making useless garbage mandatory. Link to post Share on other sites
JoeBob 606 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Show of hands from everyone who thinks the term 'Professional Scouter' is an expletive? Apologies to all the professional scouters on the board... Two hands up from all the professional scouters who think the term 'Professional Scouter' is an expletive? Link to post Share on other sites
SeattlePioneer 144 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Sorry Joe Bob, As district membership chair I see the critical role district executive play in doing the heavy lifting on recruiting new members, fund raising and starting new units. Absent paid staff, I believe a pretty large number of Scout units would found withing a few years, and I'm not sure where that trend would stop. Personally, I think the paid staff provide a lot of the backbone that allows units to function and thyrive. Volunteers are great at a good many things, but others simply wouldn;t get done very well without paid staff. That's my experience and opinion, anyway. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle92 110 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Joebob, Depends on the pro. I have seen some pros who gave 110%. Not only doing what they were suppose to be doing, but going the extra mile trying to be a mentor to new units when no UCs existed. I've seen DEs give away their own personal camping gear to new units that needed it, b/c he would not be using it again. I've seen pros who when there was a problem, fix it. I've seen DE's who gave back at camp, doing some rather dirty and irksome tasks sot hat camp will be successful. I have seen pros work with their district committees so well, that the district committee keeps the district running, not growing but running, when that pro leaves and there is a vacancy for several months. But I have also seen the other side. Pros that this is just a job. Pros that focus on just the numbers so much, that they forget that number is a youth wanting to be a member of the greatest youth movement in the world; a unit that will make an impact in the community, a donation that will keep the cost of the program affordable so that more folks can participate in it; and a volunteer trying to make an inpact in someone's life. If you ever visit with other Scout associations, you will find that we are the envy of the world b/c we do have a professional cadre to support us. Whereas in other countries it run mostly by volunteers. I know in the UK, it took one leader 2 months to get a Queen's Scout Badge she promised me b/c she could not catch up with the volunteer who dealt with the ranks. All I would need to do is go to my local scout shop at home, tell the manager "Hi ________, I need replacement Eagle badge, here's the Advancement report." and I would get it in about 5 minutes (OK more like 15-30 minutes since I would probably chat up a storm). If you have a good DE, they are worth their weight in platinum. If you don't, well.... Link to post Share on other sites
HICO_Eagle 93 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Don't get me wrong -- I have nothing against professional scouters. We need them and we have a great bunch of them in my council. Having said that, being "professionals" doesn't necessarily make them more qualified on Scouting training. It's not like being a doctor or a pilot or a dentist and quite a lot of management "education" is faddism (anyone remember TQM/TQL? or Demings? or Seven Habits?). Link to post Share on other sites
JoeBob 606 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 My apologies for the flip comment about 'Professional Scouters' last night. My reaction was based more on my perception of the watered-down lawyer-filtered training BSA 'Professional Scouters' are putting out, and should not have been a blanket condemnation. In my youth I was exposed to some very high quality professional scouters, and I'm sure that there area few good ones out there still. I was out of line. Sorry. Thanks for re-directing me. JoeBob Link to post Share on other sites
sherminator505 10 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 I don't think the problem is that the training program is developed by professionals for volunteers. I think that the professionals who develop the training are not contemplating how their bright ideas will actually be implemented in the field.(This message has been edited by sherminator505) Link to post Share on other sites
ScoutBox 11 Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I am a new UC. Been trained, but now official. I contacted my first unit, and of course they are one that has been asking for support for a long time. I offer it, and they throw a fit about wanting it their way, complaining that Council is getting in their business.. ????? Link to post Share on other sites
moosetracker 132 Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 So ScoutBox, what is it they want their way? Training?.. I guess training they have to do it Nationals/Councils way, or not get credit for it.. That has not much to do with the UC.. Other things from what I understand a UC is suppose to support suggest & guide, but not push & force.. So with other things, if you were trying to change their program, they get it their way.. If it is the wrong way and they end up doing twice the amount of work, or have low membership.. Well not your fault.. They got it their way.. We had our Council planning meeting last night. I thought my proposal to enhance and shorten the time for experienced trainers to get through (not Nationals Testout.. but a course catering only to those who could have tested-out..) Would not come up as our Scouting University is this weekend, and I was told the meeting was totally about that.. So I was not as prepared as I would have liked when it did come up.. But, since I have a good vision of it, I think I made my case well, without much prep time. Then I was totally confused as a vote was to be taken and everyone discussed why they didn't like the Test-out, and it sounded totally like the normal test-out.. So be fore the vote I said I was confused, as everyone was definately not voting on the proposal I laid out.. Indeed they were voting on the test-out.. And our Council Training Chair said she needed a new official vote on the National Test-out.. Seems National will support each Council's decision to make it illegal, so they needed a new vote.. So I guess the last vote to not support it was a Council gone rogue.. And this was an official vote.. A vote for my program comes up in two months at the next meeting.. I guess it was more a "we can do other things, here's one suggestion.., but now we have to vote on the real Test-out.." Well not surprising the test-out was again voted to be illegal in our council.. I know one person liked my idea as she voiced it. Two other people had differing ideas. One sounded like what they already do, have the experienced scouters go through the course with everyone else, but also be on staff. Another sounded like what we have discussed, bringing back the older type of Woodbadge (which might be a good idea, but since it would not credit those with IOLS, I think is worth looking at as a totally seprate course).. So I don't know how my proposal will play out two months from now.. I do know I have a tough crowd.. I also know a few other things to mention, that were brought up in the discussion about why they don't like test-out, in order to sell it, to some who don't like test-out for this or that reason.. Why my proposal will address that concern.. Wish me luck in two month's I think I will need it. Link to post Share on other sites
ScoutBox 11 Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Moose, thanks. I am only offering to help. Not forcing anything. The troop I'm dealing with is already a hard case. Wanting to do things the non BSA way. Anyway, I expect things to be different once the SM and the CC is gone. Link to post Share on other sites
ctbailey 10 Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Scoutbox, let's spin off a new thread, shall we? I think your experience with this unit could use some light shined on it. I spun it into the "Program" area, because it's really not "adult leader training" related, and I'm sorta interested in some ScoutMasters and Cub Masters experiences as well.(This message has been edited by ctbailey) Link to post Share on other sites
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