Resentment about needing to get trained?!

[SeattlePioneer 144]

Personally I often find BSA training useful. After being appointed Cubmaster a year ago, I took the Cubmaster specific training twice.

 

The Cubmaster training at our major Council training program didn't have much to do with what was in the Cubmaster training syllabus, it was largely what a talented Cubmaster thought new Cubmasters should think about doing. That was reasonably good, and I've used some of the methods he displayed.

 

The second was a by-the-syllabus Cubmaster training conducted by our District training chair. That was more useful if not as mind expanding.

 

Still, I'm not at all happy by the "mandatory" nature of training. It creates difficulties in recruiting needed leaders and more importantly is going to cause leaders to be dishonest in registering volunteers in the years to come. People who hold Scout positions are increasingly going to not be registered for those jobs, and hence will not have background checks done or anything else.

 

While I favor, endorse and support training, I oppose making it mandatory.

 

 

 

[moosetracker 132]

I can see a Troop registering ASM's as committee members to get around the manditory IOLS.. But, the on-line is simple enough, and committee is all on-line training. I would think most units will register their leaders even if not in the correct position. I know our units would not want to bypass those background checks.. It protects them as well as the youth.. But, if they see the IOLS course as not so important, I can see them registering people as Committee, and having them do the ASM position to get around the training.

 

CS is all on-line, and they need to have those positions of CM & DL for each level of the program.. So that one I don't think will get mis-registered as much.

[Scoutfish 16]

Dessrt and Seattle,

You both bring up great points.

When I took BALOO, I was disappointed in many of the different sections of the class. I felt like they were just common sense things: Don't let cub scouts use matches to start white gas cookstoves.

 

Really? I figured I'd give my son a 1 gallon can of gas and a Bic lighter and wish him luck.

But over the years, I have realized that some parents WOULD do just that.

Alot of leaders as well as potential leaders do indeed have the mindset that" I have ben camping all my life! Ain't nobody gonna tell me how to do "X" !"

 

Thing is, I know plenty of guys who's dads would drive with a beer between their legs and who would use a gallon of gas to light a charcoal grill.

 

They would hand their 5 year old sons lighters and M-80's to play with beacuse "Well damit I did it as a kid and I turned out fine!"

 

And the thing is..I will bet $$ that each and every one of you has at least 1 parent in your unit like that.

 

There is that one parent that made you say: "If he/she becomes a leader, then I'm out!"

 

How many threads have been written about a parent who sees no issue with bringing a beer to a campout ?

 

I'll bet that a little over half of us just get annoyed by training that we are already beyond in the learning or experience tense of it.

 

But at the same time..how do you know what you know, how do you know that is actually scouting urban myth, and how about the "Iv'e been doing this for so long- you wont tell me anything" know.

 

Kinda like driver's ed. Most of us probably had already driven vehicles and knew most all the practical rules of the road.

 

But you still have the ones who absolutely know a ticket is void if the cop doesn't wear his hat when he writes it.

 

 

If nothing else, training Can seperate the trutrh from the friction.

 

 

So, some of us may resent being "talked down to" at training.

But the resentment can also be from those who "already know everything they need to know".

 

You just can't put it all in one catagory.

[desertrat77 1144]

Scoutfish, much of the I-know-it-all student attitude can be nipped in the bud by running a respectful training session.

 

When the average scouter shows up for an all-day session, and the atmosphere is one of "Sit down, be quiet, we (the training cadre) have alot to say today, we shall cover every minute point in the syllabus, let the powerpoint death march begin, and by the way, the only time we want to hear from you students is when we sing "The Grand Olde Duke of York" well, this is fertile ground for discontent. Particularly when the cadre passes along a "we district/council scouters are holier than you unwashed unit level folks." No fish tale there, seen it. No doubt it's related to one of my favorite threads still chugging along whether WB is about the beads or no........anyhoo......

 

Good instructors--anywhere in the world--know their audiences. Respect begets respect.

 

Any superb BSA instructor I've known (and there are a few) always conveys a sense of respect and good humor during class time. And is willing to trim some fluff out of the syllabus, for sanity's sake.

[Nike 94]

OK, I love training classes. I love getting to meet new people, trade ideas, not hear anyone yelling, "Mom, I hate my (insert sibling.)"

 

But, I detest being read to from a script and spoken to like I'm in kindergarten. (At one GS training, both the trainers were retired Kindergarten teachers and 30-year leaders. Old habits, I guess.)

 

I hate it when the trainer says, "But I know y'all already know that, so we won't cover that." Hello, some of us do and some of us don't.

 

And, don't get me started on trainers who can't stick to a reasonable timeline or spend more time than Adam talking about some esoteric occurence from three years ago when Jim was there and it was hilarious.

 

My time is valuable: please treat it that way.

 

 

[John-in-KC 311]

My time is valuable: please treat it that way.

 

Yea, verily, Nike!!!

 

Don't read me the power point slides. I can read. Add value to them. If the training is read the powerpoints, I can do that faster with better retention if I'm given them in hardcopy or with url.

[SeattlePioneer 144]

moosetracker,

 

Unfortunately, I expect that the art of not registering Scouters will become a fine art in the years to come. You pointed out some methods to me that I hadn't thought of!

 

I was just looking through MyScouting.Org for Pack Committee Chair Training, and I didn't see the specifric level training there. Unless I mmissed things, only a portion of the training can be taken on line for Cub Packs. I noticed only the fast start training for ScoutParent Co-ordinators, for example.

 

Am I missing something?

 

And personally I just don't care much for badgering volunteers. Maybe we should have an official position of "Pack Nag"? I suppose that would be the Pack Trainer, but I like my title better!

[Eagle92 110]

I too am one of those who don't like being read to. BUT I admit that when I do training, I do use the powerpoints, mostly to A) make sure I cover what is needed to cover B) as a mental note to myself to keep on track and not talk too much ( me talk to much ) and C) le thte students know what is going on, help take notes and know there is a method to the madness.

 

 

But a comment that someone said reminded me of the 'Self Study" courses offered at one time. When I did Explorer Leader Basic Training Self Study back in the day, I was given the training book to read, and then met with the Exploring Executive to discuss it. Took about a week to read the book between work and school, and then about 15-30 minutes talking to the EE about the material.

 

I know that all Specific Trainingbeing online is headed our way, but why not do some of the Self Study type trainings still?

[Scoutfish 16]

 

 

 

Unless those "know it all decided before hand that they know it all and therefore don't need the training.

 

What I am trying to say is not that ALL people think they know better, just that some do.

 

Likewise, not all leaders resent training because of it being disrespectful or a waste of time.

 

I have seen both myself.

 

Some "potentail" leaders have to be discountd because they are all on board about becoming an adult leader, but as soon as you mention training, they give you a opatronizing smileamd wave away the thought of training because they have been camping since they were 10 and their best friend's third cousin was a Boy Scout .

 

But likewise, I also hate to go to a training where the instructor will spend twice as much time talking about something that they and Ed did 3 years ago ( yuk, yuk, yuk here) at a Resident Camp Staff after camp party and oh you should have been there...than what the training course is about.

 

 

My only point was it's not just one kind of person or just one reason people don't want to train.

 

Some are tired of not being in the little clique of fun and merryment the trainers share. Others are born camping experts without ever setting foot in the woods. Some saw a tree once and therefore already know it all.

 

Me? I just try not to imagine choking the instructor when they spend 30 minutes of a 45 minute session talking about their daughters pink and sky blut tafita ballerina costume and how so precious she was and how the whole audeince absolutely loved her more than any other contestant - except the crooked judges! Ain't that right Ed?

[moosetracker 132]

Scoutfish - I can understand the not wanting to hear about some irrelevant story like a daughters ballerina costume (although if soccer takes off this may be our next scout program focus).. Or listening to something about an after scout party.

 

But some stories short and to the point of the instructors experience, say they are discussing dealing with problem scouts or problem adults, and accent it with a example or two of real life experience.. Those I see as very beneficial to me wrapping my mind around abstract concepts with some concrete examples. To me those things are invaluable, and sometimes make taking the same training a 2nd or 3rd time with different instructors still relevent with new ideas and concepts to take away..

 

It also is one way to personalize the power point presentations, which are dull & dry on their own. Of course most of the time I took multiple courses over again it pre-dated the power point courses.

 

I do still revisit the Dutch Oven & utensiless cooking courses every time we have Scouting U though.. No power point, same instuctors.. But who cares, dishes always are different and great tasting and any way you look at it they are fun classes.

[Scoutfish 16]

Personal experience stories related to subject matter are great and often times sink the point of the subject further.

 

I'm all for that. But I do hate when one instructor happens to sit in another instructors class and at some point, it' s all about: " We went to "X" together and Jimbo did some funny stuff. We had a great time"

But the what, how it relates to the class or subject and any meaning is never revealed. It's a "you had to be there" inside joke.

 

I love the cooking sessions. Maybe becuase I love to eat!

 

Alot of the sae material gets covered in many differet classes I go to. That's cool because sometimes you see something in a different light suddenly.

 

But the food is always new or different.

[acco40 95]

We are an organization of volunteers. Keep the following things in mind.

 

1) As a trainer, we have an audience of folks that run the gamut of not having finished high school to some who have multiple graduate degrees.

 

2) For many folks, Scouting is a social event and sometimes they get a little long winded with stories and such - this applies to the students and trainers. Others, see training as a "have to" and want to get it out of the way/over as soon as possible.

 

3) Trainers are volunteers like everyone else. Some are good, some bad, some excellent. If you are a student for a training session, please provide constructive feedback about the trainers - good and bad.

 

4) If you see a problem with the training, be a part of the solution. Volunteer to help in a future training session. Good course directors should always be in the habit of screening course "takers" as possible future course "givers."

 

5) Training isn't magical. It's one thing to "know the rules" and another to follow them. Look at many of the posts on this forum - they state that they know the "rules" but purposely feel they don't need to follow them rationalizing that they have the Scouts interest at heart when they choose not to follow the program. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[1HR_A_WEEK 10]

I like training because it teaches the BSA way of doing things. I've seen leaders that haven't done their training and on occasion have seen discrepancies. I don't want to see a scout learn Jim Bob's way of doing X,Y,Z, I want to see them learning the BSA way.

 

Conversely, if I'm volunteering to fill a role, I want the training, being left to twist out in the wind isn't my idea of fun. Just my two cents.

 

 

[Oak Tree 15]

The part I like about training is that you get to meet other Scouters, here their ideas, and maybe pick up a little enthusiasm.

 

At this point of my Scouting career, I don't expect to learn anything from any BSA course. I have really enjoyed University of Scouting classes and I really liked Wood Badge.

 

The Scoutmaster-specific course and IOLS were just absolute, complete wastes of time. In fact, it's hard to imagine how this wouldn't be the case, since they appeared to be geared for people who didn't know anything about Scouting. I understand that you might occasionally have someone starting a troop who doesn't really know how a troop works, but my Scoutmaster-specific class had about 20 ASMs who appeared to all have a few years of experience with a troop and who appeared to all be college educated. By lunchtime the class was about ready to mutiny against the coverage of basic material.

 

And IOLS??? First of all, the idea that you can learn these skills in a weekend is impractical. To really learn the skills would take more time. It was a fly-over of the skills. If you knew the skills already then it was useless. If you didn't know the skills before, you still didn't know them after. I couldn't see who was learning anything.

 

And now I'm supposed to encourage all of my ASMs to get the training, since it will be mandatory in a year?!? Can I honestly recommend the courses? Well, some of my ASMs did take an IOLS class in another district and came back with rave reviews. We'll be recommending that. But it's not because that district follows the syllabus. In fact, the course seems to have been good precisely because they *didn't* follow the syllabus, but instead discussed much more advanced versions of the topics.

 

I don't even mind making training mandatory. But I want a test-out option. Or else an advanced version that would also count. Or just require some number of hours of training. Or something. Our troop is working well. Our new leaders learn the basics just from being around the troop. Give them a way to learn better stuff.

[dewASM 10]

My problem is not the training but that they mandate training and then....

 

1. make me pay for it

2. I have to travel AT LEAST an hour and a half in each direction to take it

3. It is only given once a year and always on the same weekend. One which is not practical for me. I am a salesman working on commission and it is given during the busiest three weeks of my year. Not to mention it is the same weekend as Honor Society Inductions and several other events in June.

 

I am not the only one in my rural area to complain about the timing and logistics. Offer it at camp. I have said if they do it in the fall, I'm there. And every year Council promises to make changes and every year they offer the same thing.

 

Work with us, not against us.

 

This year they had NYLT scheduled for August. I was thrilled and going to send 2 boys. They just cancelled - and not for lack of participation. They hadn't even advertised it yet. I only knew because I went looking through the calendar for it.

When I asked, they suggested two alternates. Both are done over two weekends. One is more than two hours away. The other does one weekend at a camp 1.5 hours away and the second weekend is 3 hours away. to drop off and pick up means 16 hours of driving over two weekends, not to mention the cost in gas. Could they make training any more difficult?