Advance Outdoor Leadership Training Anyone?

[Eagledad 2777]

The Last Frontier Council has just such a course unless it has changed in the last couple years.

 

It is a two weekend course of outdoor skills where the participants are working out of their pack during the whole course. I can't remember what its called and I have not attended it because I was a little busy at the time for that much additional outdoor training (I was camping 70 days a year at the time). It is considered a very advanced elite outdoor skills course. The instructors are all very experienced and passionate with sticking with a strict syllabus. I never heard anything but rave reviews about, but the last I looked at it, it was starting to struggle with filling the class. My personal opinion was that it was targeting folks out of Wood Badge and many folks are burned out of training at that time.

 

Barry

 

[Eamonn 61]

Advance Outdoor Leadership Training Anyone?

No Thanks!

My reasoning?

I think the basic skills work.

It is up to the person to then build upon, practice and use the basic skills in order to get better at them.

The guy adding lighter-fuel to start the fire knew what he was doing and knew that it wasn't the way to go.

I don't any amount of training will cure people who choose not to do things right.

There are specialized courses for people who feel the want or the need to take things up a notch. Or find something that interests them, which they might want to become expert in.

For the most part, the youth we lead are ready for the challenges that can be found in the outdoor merit badges.

A year or two back I took the Leave No Trace Trainer Course.

Many of the people attending the course had a very low opinion of Boy Scouts, the main reason given was that the leaders are challenging Scouts for activities which they are just not ready for.

There are a lot of areas where I know that I'm not good enough and don't have the experience needed. When this happens and the Scouts want to become involved in this activity, I'm happy to find someone who has the know how.

Eamonn.

 

 

[SR540Beaver 116]

Hey Barry! I mentioned our council's course back on page one on Wednesday. It is OST - Outdoors Skills Training. Like you, I've been too busy to take it, but I've never heard anything but good things about it.

[ntrog8r 19]

 

As a professional trainer, I always support providing more training to folks; training that is focused, useful, and that people WANT to come to.

 

Semantics carry a lot of weight - why are we discussing an "advanced" outdoor skills course while using examples of Scouters without BASIC skills? A SM provided lighter fluid and instruction to "throw a lit match"? Really? That doesn't require ADVANCED outdoor skills this is a lack of BASIC outdoor skills.

 

Different levels of first aid experience and standards of care? This is true in every town across America. If there were a "realistic first aid experience" as part of the training syllabus, I would HOPE there was first aid training included in the training OR that the described scenario was being used to demonstrate why the soon-to-be-presented training was needed. That training would be the standard of care for the group.

 

I feel very confident in my outdoor skills, except fishing and technical rock climbing. As a Scouter in various units in various parts of the country, I have had the skills necessary for the Scouting program. However, the skills are pretty basic. What advanced skills are needed to comply with the Guide to Safe Scouting and the Handbook while camping? After all, I'm there to keep the Scouts safe while they're having fun. I am not there to train them in advanced skills. (Training the PLC has been needed in many cases to ENABLE the BOY LEADERS to train their Scouts.)

 

Also, what are we really talking about? To design a training program, the first question that has to be asked is:

>What is the purpose of (why) the training? "Advanced outdoor skills" is WHAT IS TAUGHT but does not answer the PURPOSE of teaching it.

 

Do we need training to make sure we're more competent than the Scouts are? To respond to emergencies in a field environment? To enable adult leaders to get over their anxiety about going out in the woods? To recognize our continued commitment to the program among (over) other Scouters? Each of these tasks requires a different program.

 

If the PURPOSE for the training is defined and requires "advanced" outdoor skills, what skills are they? What does advanced mean? Which outdoor skills would be covered? Is there a set that would be the same across all Scout Councils and Districts?

 

>Where (at what level) should the training take place? Is this a council or district level event?

>What is right method for presenting it? Roundtable? Weekend camping? Weeklong expedition? PowerPoint;)? Volunteer "Mentors" to bring the training to the unit leaders? UofS?

>Who is the targeted group to receive this training?

>When should receive it?

>What will they be able to do, at what measured level of performance, when training is complete?

And, most importantly,

>How does this training enhance the Scouting program for the SCOUTS?

 

On a personal note, I'd not provide any recognition to the "graduates" of the training that were worn on the uniform or otherwise displayed to others. Issue the BSA training card, a certificate, and a small token of the experience (if it warrants it) and send them out to bring their new skills to their Scout unit.

 

It is my hope to see specific ideas and answers to the proposed questions that may lead to training programs developed that meet the needs of those interested in improving the Scouting program. Who knows, if those of us "in the trenches" identify and articulate what we are looking for, National may even put something together.

 

 

 

 

[Eamonn 61]

Hi ntrog8r and Welcome.

 

I don't know, but sometimes wonder if the training that is offered is by design. That is to say, what is needed to deliver the program?

I see no need for me ever to take the training needed to go up the Orinoco River on a long pole, as I have no plans to do so and if I had? I wouldn't be taking a group of Boy Scouts with me.

I have been around for a while.

I've seen the people who have returned to Scouting who have the skills in place, some are very expert in some areas because they use the skills in the real world to earn a living or maybe they have pursued and practiced them.

I have also seen the people who are new to Scouting, new to just about everything that we do. But these people want to learn and go about doing everything they can to gain the knowledge and know how.

There is also another group. Maybe this group think of themselves as old dogs who are too old to learn new tricks?

But these people never seem to want to learn the skills. They can be found at trainings, they enjoy hanging out and the fellowship that can be found with a group of Scouter's, but when it comes to the practical stuff? They seem happy to allow everyone else to step forward while they hang back and treat it all as some kind of a joke.

Troops use these people as drivers and if they do have a special skill as MBC's.

Sadly some of these people get greatness thrust upon them for one reason or another and end up as SM's.

With no real skills and not much real understanding of the program, they fall back on stuff they know - Merit Badges!

Troop meetings become merit badge classes. They rely on District Camporees and summer camp to provide the outdoor method of Scouting.

Advanced training? Heck these guys never got the basics! So any advanced training would be just a waste of time.

I am not and never have been for mandatory training, but if it turns out that training is ever made mandatory? We need to take a long hard look at the early training's, ensuring that everyone has the skills needed.

Eamonn.

[ntrog8r 19]

Eamonn,

 

Thanks for the welcome! I definitely agree the right time and place to get adults trained is early. The examples provided show that some either did not attend required training or did not receive adequate training.

 

Many have posted concerns about the need for additional training. Maybe what is needed is better basic training. One thing for sure, with the number of threads about the need for advanced training, there must be something that is missing. Maybe we can clearly identify what that is and find a solution...

 

 

 

 

[Crew21_Adv 25]

 

 

Fellow Scouters,

 

Greetings again!

 

 

ntrog8r and I share some similar thoughts. Learning advanced outdoor skills is great. It may be fun to have a personal accomplishment, and a wallet card certifying an adult as an expert in the outdoors.

 

But are they needed? In order to take a troop of Tenderfoot Scouts out, do we really need all those extensive skills? Or do we just need to keep them safe and have an outdoor program, as prescribed in the current handbooks?

 

Another thing to ponder, How many troops backpack camp every month and how many troops tailgate camp?

 

resqman commented on his council's LAST training. Although great ancillary training, I would not have considered GPS and nighttime GPS as an advanced outdoor skills. Maybe it's just me, but yet, maybe there would be a wide gap in the definition of advanced outdoor skills across the BSA leadership.

 

If anyone can comment about Philmont treks, I've only heard second hand descriptions about them. But you can attend a Philmont back country trek with the correct recommended equipment, physically prepared, and First Class Scout skills. The Philmont trek provides you with a guide/ranger, that will hike with the trek and providing training along the way.

 

Why would a leader seek earlier training ahead of time, when they are going to experience a training environment during the trek?

 

As ntrog8r, Eamonn and a few others have eluded to, maybe BSA should enhance the current Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skills. I just don't see a requirement or mandatory reason for a course such as Advance Outdoor Leader Training.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

[GernBlansten 10]

The Philmont ranger is only there to verify you and your scouts have the skills necessary to complete the trek. They are assigned at arrival to help the crew leader through the base camp tasks. Then they join the crew for the first two nights out on trail. When they are satisfied the crew is competent, they return to base.

Although Philmont is a great place to master your backcountry skills, it is not the place to be introduced to them. Any crew who showed up with shiny gear, never using it in field would be like showing up to NTiers and never having stepped in a canoe.

[eisely 13]

I am a little late to this discussion, but our council offers the kind of training under discussion. I agree that such training should be tailored to local conditions. We offer a variety of courses. The link to that part of the council web site is below.

 

http://www.bsa-mdsc.org/hat.php

[theysawyoucomin' 10]

I too am late to the discussion.

 

I would certainly hope life experience would count and allow you to "CLEP" some of this course. As a former infantry platoon sgt I'm not going to want to listen to an "experienced " trainer tell me how to sleep under canvas. In some cases the folks who teach IOLS don't have the most experience.

 

As the same time what I really needed was age appropriate skills to work with the boys.

 

Much of the skills needed in the outdoors come from good judgement. Good judgement often comes from bad experiences, they come from bad judgement.

 

The only problem I have with Powderhorn(heresay only) is I already shoot trap,skeet and clays(badly). That is not going to gertify me to give the boys that experience. Any rock climbing is not going to certify me. The training appears to be a mile wide and one inch deep.

 

I think in Upstate NY an SM should know how to:

 

Safely backpack for 5 days

use a compass and a map(the gps can come later) the compass has been around alot longer. including a small night movement with a compass and a map.

know group size regs for your neck of the woods.

obvously E-prep for this locale

water and field sanitation

fishing

hiking and load reduction techniques

cook a variety of foods

 

Safely canoe trip 5 days

 

Winter camp for 3 days

 

That is a fairly tall order but if you can do all that you can surely sit around at a council camporee field for a weekend end and make it to the cooler in the Troop trailer to get a pepsi.