Wood Badge controversies

[emb021 16]

"It's had enough time, if the goal was to pilot it Nationally, then deploy it to Regions, to be pushed out."

 

But we don't know if the goal was ever to deploy it to Regions.

 

The old NJLIC was never provided outside of Philmont.

 

The current NAYLE has been going on for how long at Philmont?, and seems to have no plans to be provided outside of Philmont.

[NE-IV-88-Beaver 10]

"So it might not be that da problem is with WB21C other than that it gives the perception of Highest Level of Training to folks who aren't really ready to lead."

 

"WB is held as the pinnacle of scouter education" or "My perception is that WB is the pinnacle training of an outdoor program".

 

Is the central problem really that WB21C should not be considered the "Highest Level of Training" or as the "pinnacle of scouter education"? Are they really ready for that "mountain top experience"?

 

It seems to me that many of the people currently taking WB21C could benefit greatly from spending more time in the trenches, gaining Scouting experience and taking advantage of some of the other training available. WB21C is being encouraged for Scouters with little or no experience and prerequisites are waived for a large percentage of the attendees.

 

This is not to say that there were not Scouters taking the old course that didn't fall into the same category, but it certainly seemed to me that there were a lot fewer of them.

 

As a WB ticket counselor, I continue to find it hard to reconcile the differences between the two courses and feel good about it. I find it difficult to understand how just thinking about getting the job done, and not actually getting it done, shows leadership skills or ability. Oh well, as long as the WB candidate feels good about themselves!

 

But, it ain't gonna go back to what it was, so us old-timers need to get over it, accept it, and figure out what the new "mountain top experience" should be.

 

 

 

I used to be a Beaver, a good ol' Beaver too, but now I guess I'm just an old fuddy duddy!!

[emb021 16]

"It seems to me that many of the people currently taking WB21C could benefit greatly from spending more time in the trenches, gaining Scouting experience and taking advantage of some of the other training available. WB21C is being encouraged for Scouters with little or no experience and prerequisites are waived for a large percentage of the attendees."

 

You won't get any arguement from me on this point, but there will be some who will attack you for suggesting it, saying you are trying to go back to the days of exclusivist/elist WB.

 

My view on training, which frankly I got from the BSA, is one of 'take some training', put in to use, 'take some more training', put it to use, and repeat.

 

The BSA has basically different levels of training:

 

* Fast Start

* Basic

* Supplemental

* Advanced

 

Once you get signed up as a leader, you take FS. Its quick, fundamental stuff to get you going in your job. Because its quick, its available via video tape or on-line, so no waiting weeks (or more likely months) to take it. You can do it within a week or so of signing up.

 

Then you take Basic training. Ideally it should be available about twice a year, so hopefully leaders can get it within 6 months or less of signing up. This gives them the basics of how to do their job.

 

Supplemental comes next. Some are short, some are long. Each are on a different topic. Some on-line, some in-person. This is your safety training (Safe Swim Defense, et al), your skills training, and so on. Roundtable is supposed to be on-going supplemental training, done each month.

 

Wood Badge is your advanced training. Its a big course, so most councils may only offer it once a year. Obviously adults should have basic training under their belt (its required). BUT, adults should also have some experience as well. Personally, I feel a year or two of experience BEFORE they take WB.

 

But as noted, too often (I think due to courses being run more often, and needing to met their minimum requirements) there is a push to get more people in. Too often these are cub scout leaders, who are many times finishing up their tenure as a CS leader and about to move to Boy Scouts (because they are following their son...).

 

I really think there needs to be an effort to get leaders to wait a little bit before jumping into WB. But if you say this, you are seen as an elitist. In the old WB, it was difficult to get in. Most councils ran courses every 2-3 years. So they had to be picky about who the let in. Too often a scout leader took WB almost like it was a capstone of his career, after being a scoutmaster for a decade or two. Personally I feel that's too long. I think taking it during your second year at a minimum is what we should strive for.

 

 

[Vicki 11]

I hesitated to move into this thread, but I flat-out don't understand this statement, "As a WB ticket counselor, (snip) I find it difficult to understand how just thinking about getting the job done, and not actually getting it done, shows leadership skills or ability."

 

I'm current a WB troop guide and ticket counselor (my council combines both jobs), three of my patrol have been beaded. They wrote their ticket around their scouting position, did the work to complete their ticket, and earned their beads. Three more are about to finish. So I don't understand what you mean about "not actually getting it done." Clarification, please?

 

emb, I agree with you, for the most part. Realistically, though, at least in my council, it usually takes people a year to get through the adult leader training cycle. It would be possible for someone to take the fall adult leader training and then go into WB for the spring course, but then you are still talking about a cycle that is at least several months long. Generally adults coming into the program don't know enough about the program to be aware of training before the spring course the next year, so you build even more time-in-position that way. Of course, there are the go-getters, but those folks are the ones who generally "get it" anyway so you want them trained as soon as possible. Just my two cents.

 

Vicki

[John-in-KC 311]

emb,

 

Please re-read what I wrote, to whit:

 

The problem is Philmont Leadership Challenge:

 

- Is incredibly exclusive, in that there are only a few slots per year.

 

- Is conducted at 6000 feet above sea level (base height).

 

- Does not answer the need in the field for vastly more outdoor training for adults who would lead our youth members.

 

- Is incredibly expensive ... add the cost of R/T transportation to the cost of attendance.

 

It's had enough time, if the goal was to pilot it Nationally, then deploy it to Regions, to be pushed out.

 

In replying to SR540Beaver, everything I am talking about here is Philmont Leadership Challenge, which is an adult course. Youth courses were not subject of my post.

 

My point is this: Philmont Leadership Challenge, a limited, high dollar course, is in its 2d season. National should know what works/doesn't, and should push it out to get more involved. If not, it's not going to make a whit's difference in the field, particularly in the matter of advanced outdoor operations skills.

 

Does that make better sense?

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tahawk,

 

Of our 8 methods, the one where we are having less and less adult experience these days is the Outdoor. I've seen folks come to an overnighter at Scout Camp with seemingly 100lbs of gear. Certainly, a couple of Dads'n'lads needed two wagonloads to bring their stuff to a tentsite that had a tent, a platform and two cots set. We don't know how to cook on a charcoal fire, let alone wood or propane, many of our adults struggle pitching a tent, they're cold at 40F...

 

The Scout Oath may say nothing about outdoorsmanship, but that's the programmatic vehicle we use, and we darn well ought to be good users of our primary tool.

[NE-IV-88-Beaver 10]

Vicki -

 

Clarification, please?

 

Received a phone call about three weeks ago from my WB candidate, "It's rained twice when I had my activity planned and we had to cancel. I don't think that we're going to be able to get it in." My responce - "Well, how long do you have to complete your ticket?" "I've got until next April to finish." Me - "Well, it sounds like you should have plenty of time to reschedule and get it in." "Well, I don't know. I guess I can talk to the Cubmaster and see if we can still do it sometime this fall."

 

Doesn't quite sound like an example of learned leadership skills to me. If he had said, "I think that I've done my best to get it in and I'm comfortable with that.", we would have been done with that ticket item. I have a problem with that philosophy.

 

 

[Vicki 11]

John in KC wrote, "Of our 8 methods, the one where we are having less and less adult experience these days is the Outdoor. I've seen folks come to an overnighter at Scout Camp with seemingly 100lbs of gear."

 

I will certainly second this statement! My first outing with Son 2's new troop was summer camp one year. I showed up with my backpack - my one concession to the wall tent being my Coleman mushroom tent light. Several folks asked where the rest of my gear was and a couple obviously thought I was a bit odd.

 

Now I do understand the SM or other adult who shows up for a weekend with fishing, cooking, or other gear which, on a troop level, can amount to quite a truckload - but the amount of personal gear some folks seem to "need" is truly amazing!

 

Vicki

[Vicki 11]

OK, NE-IV - I understand and thank you for the clarification. You have cited one case of someone who is obviously helpless. At the risk of sounding confrontational, your statement as you wrote it sounded to me like it was generalizing your one case to all current participants in the program?

 

While the participants I've dealt with (as a participant and as a TG) have had greatly varying degrees of outdoor skills, they've all had some basic level of problem solving ability that exceeds what you describe. Maybe it's something in the water:

[Vicki 11]

"If he had said, "I think that I've done my best to get it in and I'm comfortable with that.", we would have been done with that ticket item. I have a problem with that philosophy. "

 

Are you saying you would have signed off on that ticket item as being complete if the participant had used those words? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't.

 

Vicki

 

[NE-IV-88-Beaver 10]

In the ticket counselor training that I received covering the transition between Wood Badge and WB21C, that's the way it was explained to me. I certainly questioned it because I wouldn't have signed off on it before. It was all about making the candidates "feel good" about themselves. In the future, if they were satisfied, we needed to be as well.

 

Almost made me feel that we were now being enlisted as nannies rather than counselors.

[Vicki 11]

Wow. Nope, that's not the way the program was presented to me. I was very clearly told that it was up to me if a participant had completed a ticket, but that I was to render all possible aid and accommodation. Accommodation does not mean rolling over.

 

Of course, the Council Advancement professional is a retired Marine officer - that might have something to do with it. Wonderful gentleman and his standards are high.

 

Vicki

[TAHAWK 1420]

"Tahawk,

 

Of our 8 methods, the one where we are having less and less adult experience these days is the Outdoor. I've seen folks come to an overnighter at Scout Camp with seemingly 100lbs of gear. Certainly, a couple of Dads'n'lads needed two wagonloads to bring their stuff to a tentsite that had a tent, a platform and two cots set. We don't know how to cook on a charcoal fire, let alone wood or propane, many of our adults struggle pitching a tent, they're cold at 40F...

 

The Scout Oath may say nothing about outdoorsmanship, but that's the programmatic vehicle we use, and we darn well ought to be good users of our primary tool."

 

Let me try to "send" again:

 

"That is not to say that there is anything wrong with wanting more outdoors skills instruction for Scouts and Scouters. A course to follow-up on IOLS would be good. Do it. My Council will be offering such a course."

. . .

"No argument from me about the centrality of the Outdoor Program to Boy Scouting and Venturing. But Wood Badge is now for Cubbing leaders as well, and the outdoors does not seem as central to Varsity Scouting.

 

In any case, there is an identification here of a void in training that is not being filed by the offerings at Philmont. That need can be filled by Districts and Councils. Some are already addressing the need. We can all be champions for advanced outdoor skills training wherever we are."

 

"Catch"?

 

Lacking the authority or influence to change the WB syllabus back to what it was before 2001 -- or before 1972 -- what should we do? Complain more OR staff IOLS and work hard for advanced outdoor leader skills training in our Councils and Districts? I'm am not worried about what "they" will do so much as what "we" will do. Leaders lead.

[John-in-KC 311]

What we should do?

 

I can answer that

 

1) We need to re-look the programmatics of a District Roundtable. We need to look at requiring, each month, each District Nationwide to present a block on an outdoor skill.

 

2) We need to create a series of topic-specific weekends (in some cases, in town followed by weekend):

- Iron Field Chef

- Survivor Weekend

- Frontcountry without the circus!

 

Each one of those weekends is designed to enhance a skillset. There are hundreds of others any number of us can think of.

 

Point is this, to me: We claim the outdoors is where we place our program. Leadership theory of small groups (and a Scout Troop is in that category) demands technical proficiency as part of the skillset. We have to find better ways in the world of supplemental training to increase the skills of our direct contact leaders.

 

My thoughts. YMMV. Have a great Scouting weekend.

-

[mikecummings157 10]

I put off taking WB for a long time, as I wasn't impressed with the graduates I saw in our troop. They disrupted our program in the quest for beads and as soon as they got them we never saw them again.

 

With that said, I recently took over as SM of my troop after 8 years as an ASM. Our Asst SE strongly recommended it to me and I decided to take the plunge. My thought was I will get out of it what I put into it. I just finished the 1st 3 days and am really looking forward to the rest of the course! I wish I had done it sooner, but I do agree with some of the other posts that the benefit for a brand new leader wouldn't be as great. A few years "in the trenches" is definitely beneficial.

[Basementdweller 608]

Sounds a lot like the Enhanced basic leadership course offered in our local council, minus the ticket. 4 weekends, well three saturdays and a full weekend.

 

Other than drinking the kool aid and joining the wood badge groupies, I just don't see the point. The ticket seems like a good deal for districts and council. I know it is supposed to be about the participant, but most councils and districts us it to get projects completed. Not a complaint, just an observation.

 

The volunteers of many councils and districts who have attended wood badge almost make it a mandatory training to volunteer at those levels. I have run into this, I call it wood badge snoobery. Now with that said, The more involved I get in district and council levels I find scouters that quietly wear the beads and aren't arrogant about it.