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Hi All,


I am the Pack trainer for a Cub Scout pack. We have a new Tiger Den leader that was involved with the Pack in the past, before any of our current leaders time. He claims to have had "all" the training. I have checked with the Council office and they only have record of him having taken two Commissioner courses. The Council a number of years ago had a "black hole" issue where many training records disappeared. He no longer has the training cards.


What to do? I would like him to take the course and refresh and perhaps share his experience with the other Tiger Den leader. What is required in this situation? Does the Council force the issue or is it the Chartering Organization?


Any suggestions to presenting this in a tactful way? He isn't going to be happy...

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If he took it prior to any of the current leaders' time, the Tigers program is quite different than it is now (t-shirts to unis for one!). If he was a Tiger all the way through Webs, it was at least 5 years ago... I would put it to the committee with a strong recommendation that he retake it. 5 years may be a good guideline to require re-training? A reasonable leader should understand that, but some folks aren't always reasonable! Get your committee backing before so if there's any grief they have your back.

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I am also a Pack Trainer, and on the district training team.


Generally, training is not required (unless your CO requires it), but obviously strongly encouraged. If he is a Tiger leader, explain that the program has changed since he was a leader (as it actualy has) and encourgage him to attend the new course. Remind him that it should be an easy refresher as he is already familiar with much of the program.


Our pack has always picked up the cost of all leader training as a way to encourage leaders to attend. Because of this, we expect to have 100% trained for the 4th straight year.

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And to think all this time I thought the Council I serve had the "Black Hole" market cornered!!

I have served as a District and Council Training Chair.

Lost Records are not uncommon.

Maybe the District or Council Training Chair, along with the Training Committee needs to come up with a "What are we going to do when this happens? Policy.

Our "Black Hole" was so big!! That we came up with the idea that a Scout is to be Trusted. This being true the word of a Scouter should be good as gold.

The last thing you want to do is scare off an adult who if he is a Tiger Cub parent? Still has ten good years ahead of him.

Maybe inviting him to help train the other leaders might be a nice way of getting the job done and ensuring that he gets up to par?

If your Council provides Training's that are worth-while and fun, chances are that he will want to attend.

However if you come off as a "Finger Wagger" - Things might not turn out very well.

Think about what the goal is. (Having him want to take training and get trained.)

If he has said that he has taken the Training, look for ways of helping him gt involved in more training.

You might want to suggest that re-taking the training would provide a new record that would really help him out when it comes time to receive training awards.

"If the front door is locked try looking for a back-door"

Good Luck.


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What parts of the training that he had would still be current? None as far as I can tell from my cards.


He needs to take YPT as soon as possible - its online, pretty good too, and is easy to do.

He needs FastStart because not only has the Tiger program changed dramatically (I had someone give me, very kindly, all their old Tiger materials last year - BOY was it misleading!!!) but so have MANY of the forms, requirements, rules, etc., etc. in Cub Scouting more generally. It too is online, pretty easy to do, and will update him on a couple of things.

He needs CSLST so he can have a general handle on advancement and does and don'ts for programming today.


Then there are the more advanced trainings, or specific trainings, like BALOO, BBs & Archery, Safety Afloat, Swim Safety, etc. which have all been "updated" in the past couple of years from what I can tell from the old literature.

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WDL Mom,




Training records do get lost on occasions...


Also Scouts and Scouters move across the US, and expect their record to follow them like an online banking account. In reality, most councils now use ScoutNet. Most all their Councils training and advancement records are on local council servers, and I believe duplicated and saved on national BSA servers. However records must be released between registrars.


Similar to having a college transcript forwarded to another university across the U.S.; it is not automatic, but it is possible.


Also, training syllabi do get updated; as national policy, documentation "handbooks", advancement requirements, and advancement recording changes.


I believe that Scouting created Pack Trainer about seven years ago, (in 2000) to confirm that new Cub Scout leaders are completing the training, but also partially to take the training to the Packs, for those that could not attend District and Council training events.


From the Leadership Training Committee Guide, "There are three types of training situations: group training, personal coaching, and self-study."


Regarding your new Tiger Den leader. You had asked, What to do? What is required? And, Does the Council force this issue?


My thoughts are... As some of our fellow Scouters have stated. The YPT is the mandatory training for direct contact leadership. This is what the Council and Chartering Organization can state as a required training.


After that, I would "personally coach" this Scouter. I have done this on occasion, having a 30 minute to a couple of hour meeting. I don't do it often, but I have reviewed the material one on one with other adults to assure they comprehend the syllabus. Honestly, your returning Tiger Den Leader may (or may not) have a very good understanding of the handbooks, documentation, advancement procedures, record keeping, etc.


A full day of training will be result in one of two situations. A waste of time (if it was duplicating something they have already learned) they could have been Scouting with the Den or with their family; or a full day of training may be a great eight hour experience of learning and networking. "Group study" has its benefits, and is the preferred method, but it is one of three methods of training.


If this returning Tiger Den Leader has experienced the CSLST training already (although it may be lost at council), then a "personal coaching" training method may review what he/she knows. Then you would be able to submit a valid training report to your district and Council registrar.


Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

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Thanks for everyone's suggestions.


I think that I will propose that he "update" his training and share his expertise with the other new tiger den leader. If that doesn't work then I will pursue the shorter individual version where I can update him on the changes. I would also want him to update YPT as well. Either way he would get some training... which is the whole point! :)



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