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Is it just me or has this forum become increasingly more hostile since the return of Bob White? Kudu is essentially correct when he states that independent patrol activities are not really emphasized or even talked about very much if at all in council/district trainings. Even if IPA is in the book Bob in our age of fearful parents, potential lawsuits and other fear factors it is really not emphasized much anymore either in training or in practice, and not on just the local level either but all the way to the top. At PTC a few years ago in a discussion about patrol methods a SM mentioned this topic and how his patrols went off on hiking trips without an adult on a regular basis. Well about half of the SM's present told him how irresponsible that was, and then the instuctor from National stated that we did not have enough time to go into the issue and squashed the discussion. That I think is the sad reality of the state of boy scouting today that Kudu is referring to. So just because something is in writing doesn't make it so, sometimes the reality does not match the vision.

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You used to be a professional scouter for nearly 6 years. You should know of all posters what is or isn't in the resources of the BSA.


Patrol Activities have been supoported and taught through the history of the BSA. There have always been parents and there have always been lawyers and yet the BSA Still teaches Patrol Activities.


What Kudu refers to is what he thinks and does, not what the BSA teaches or supports.


As someone who used to be a professional you should realize that there are units who follow the program and units that do not and rarely do the units that follow the program fail.


At the PTC conference you refer to when the other SMs showed that they did not know the Patrol Method, the contents of the Handbook or of BSA training, why did you not speak up and show them that the first Scoutmaster was following the program?


I am sure he would have appreciated your support, and certainly as someone who used to be a professional for almost 6 years you knew that what he was doing was part of the BSA program? Why did you not help the others to better understand and deliver the program? That to me is the sad state of scouting, that you would know someone was doing the right thing but you chose not to help them.



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Give it a rest Bob, first of all I was not leading the class and the instructor made it clear that there would be no more discussion, so it would had been inappropriate to try and take control of the conversation. Being a former professional among volunteer scouters does not carry as much weight as you think it does, and it doesn't give me any special power to question the competency of the instructor. This SM and I along with a group of others in attendance did have lunch together and we did discuss the topic in great detail with many constructive and positive ideas exchanged, so you see everything turned out for the best. If I had in the session challenged the instructor by demanding it says here in the scoutmaster handbook or any other resource, it would have been very counterproductive, much like you experience in this forum when you use the same tactics to tell someone they are wrong.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

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Was it only a week or so back that two threads were closed?

I personally think closed threads are a shame, they don't show us (Scouter's) in a very good light.

People having different points of view is a good thing.

Out and out attacks on someone? Just Stinks.

Please Stop.


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Based then on your knowledge of Scouting and your familiarity with the training and resources of the BSA, from having at one time been a professional for almost 6 years BadenP, can you offer any evidence that we can review in any BSA resource or syllabus that is contrary to either the BSA's support of servant leadership or of its support and teachings of a patrol's ability to do activities independent of adult leadership?


If so would you please share that source as we have alredy showed that the BSA supports these through numerous and specific current training and print resources.


I was unaware that any such information existed in the BSA program and would appreciate knowing where they are.

Thanks you for your assistance in this matter. I look forward to your informed response.





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John-in-KC, emb021, thank you for the clarification. I did plow through many of the posts, but the brotherly chit chat between BW and K gets a bit tedious and redundant. I absolutely did not pick up on the subtle parody embodied in the "White Stag is evil" comment. Thanks for educating me.


As to the two books you mention emb021, I am grateful that you find them useful enough to keep around. I am embarking on slowly updating the two books, enlightened perhaps with a more mature and practical understanding of boy leadership, and will re-publish them in hard copy, as the cost of small volume self publishing has become more affordable.


Three of my sons attended White Stag at Camp Cutter in the Santa Cruz Mountains as candidates this year, and I have volunteered to serve in the program once again, having taken many years off to concentrate on my business, raise children, nurture my (third) marriage, and allow for rotation of leadership and new blood.


Ironically, I was also called earlier this spring as Scoutmaster of my ward's on-a-good-day six-member Troop. I grew up in "traditional" (why do I have to put that in quotes?) or non-LDS Scouting, and I find the LDS/SM experience challenging. But that's a whole 'nother thread.


John, I am somewhat thankful that with the recent success of Olympian Michael Phelps, I can shift from introducing myself as "Phelps, like in Mission Impossible" -- which fewer and fewer get -- to "Phelps, like Michael Phelps." Is it KC - Kansas or Missouri? My mother grew up in KC Missouri.


I have not lurked on these forums at all, though I will check in more frequently from time to time, as I do find some of the topics interesting.



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You know Eamonn I think I must take issue with your last post, in the time I have been part of this forum I have witnessed Bob White harrass, insult and attack other members whenever he disagreed with what they had posted, he did not try to discuss politely he attacked. In at least 99% of the cases Bob has initiated the attack and continued it, and the moderators have let him get away with it. I too think that this behavior is unscoutlike. White claims to have all this knowledge of scouting and yet all I ever see him do is quote a page out of a scout resource and then commence his attack on the poster. After seeing this go on and on it seems to me that most of the moderators seem to endorse this behavior and I find that unscoutlike as well. I feel that it is time to rein in Mr. Whites behavior so that free discussion can continue in this forum without his attacks.

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Here is the problem RangerT... I am notthe topic of the thread, and when you post your personal opinion of me rather than share your knowledge of the topic you do nothing to further the discussion. Just as when BadenP tried to make me the topic rather than present his view and any substanative evidence to support it.


You are welcome to try and start a thread about me, but it has been tried before. The problem is that while you will get some, perhaps several people to share in the insults, you will not find evidence of what you claim in my posts.


I have not called you or others any names, I present refererences and resources to support the information on Scouting that I share. The problem is that when the printed information from the BSA is contrary to what people say they do they take it personally. And since they cannot refute the information they take their frustration out on the messenger.


If you disagree with my posts then find BSA evidence to their contrary. If people take offense to the BSA materials saying one thing while they do another, then that is not my fault or responsibility. My agreement with the BSA as a volunteer was to follow and support the BSA's program, not the the personal choices of others that are contrary to the programs's.


So let's worry less about me and more about the topic of the thread and anything related to it that you can offer and support. If what I do in scouting is contrary to your understanding of the program please let's talk about it.


My posts are always about the topic, I hope yours will be as well.





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Having swum for Taft High School all those years ago, I am also delighted at the success of Brian Phelps. I can see what the next generation of coaches are going to be looking for: Genetic big feet!


I grew up in LA, went to Santa Barbara, and then spent a career with Mother Army, active and reserve. I've lived on the Missouri side of metro KC since 1989, but it's a 10 minute drive to be on the Kansas side. In fact, today I had to do a 4 stop trip to pick up all manner of stuff, starting in Riverside, MO, and ending at my council service center.


Enjoy the time mentoring young men. You are the third concurrent LDS/traditional Scouter I know. A good friend is about to step up from being a District Commish to being an Assistant Council Commish. She's going to be the Dean of our Council (and perhaps Central Region) Commissioner College this coming February. She and her husband are living examples of what right in Scouting looks like :)

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Ok I jumped around on this thread, so correct me if I'm wrong but the main argument, in the classical sense, is that BSA has watered down leadership development and the patrol method in order to have more emphasis as a result of the 70s. Also although national preaches patrol method, in training it doesn't emphasis patrol method enough. Am I correct in this?

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Sorry about that, got distracted and hit the wrong button. Anyway if the above summarizations are correct here is my $.02 worth. YES the patrol method is not being used as much and is not promoted as it should be in training, unless you have some old school leaders and trainers. Also it is an acknowledged fact that BSA screwed up in the 70s and GBB had to become a retread again to get the BSA somewhat back on its feet by writing the 1979 handbook.


Thinking back on it, I remember as a youth having patrol meetings outside of troop meetings, and organizing and leading a patrol hike. While I did not do patrol alone camping, I do remember that once the troop arrived, each patrol was on their own for a specified length of time until it was time for activities. However the specter of lawsuits was around when I organized the hike as my SM required at least one adult accompany us on our hike. Luckily a dad tagged along for the hike and let us do all the work. This was during the 9th edition was out.


I also remember going through Brownsea 22, which in my council considered the youth equivalent of Woodbadge. There was still an emphasis on patrol method and learning. Kudu would be proud because they had 8 patrols and staff spreadout over 1600+ acres of land. Only saw everyone at the beginning of the week, when we switched from "incountry" and "backcountry" during the middle of the week ( and that was on the backpacking trail), Cleanup and Service Project day on Friday, and graduation on Saturday.


When I went through SM Fundamentals and served on JLT staff, during the 10th edition, there was less emphasis on the patrol method during the training. Yes everyone worked together as a team, and yes there were minor competition between patrols, but nowhere near the inter-patrol competition I remember during Brownsea. Kudu would not be happy with the JLT course as everyone camped within 300 yards of one another.


What's the solution, don't really know. Yes the lawyers are killing us with costs and fees. And yes leaders are afraid of the threat of lawsuits, happened in my old troop as we had a family who DID sue an organization they disagreed with and WON the case. So some of the things BSA has put in place that are challenges to fully reimplementing the patrol method are her to stay. But I also know that with the very active lives some of our members live, it is hard for themto meet at times outside the troop, and even during troop times it seems. Maybe some old school trainers, gold loops, and new Woodbadgers should ge together and try to work something out.



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Initially, my goal was to start a discussion regarding the use of these management tools as leadership development training in Scouting. That worked for awhile until Bob & Kudu hijacked the thread.


Personally, I don't like the idea of using management tools as leadership development for the BSA. Yes the BSA is a business but the leadership that needs to be taught to the volunteers isn't the same as what corporate America needs. The focus is completely different!


Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

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The study of leadership as an academic discipline actually exists. The Army, at the US Army Combined Arms Center, Fort Leavenworth, has a full department of academics working on the study of leadership: It's called the Center for Army Leadership. Mother Army is willing to resource a senior Colonel to run it.


Yes, even the Army has changed its model of leadership. When I entered service, way too long ago, we used the 12 traits of leadership as our basic learning model. We've moved away from that; we now use an ethic-based model for teaching leadership... BE, KNOW, DO. Without wading through pages of blah blah, here's one of the best executive summaries of the ethic I've seen:




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The concept of Be * Know * Do has been well defined in the book "Be * Know * Do: Leadership the Army Way, Adapted from the Official Army Leadership Manual," available here




Here are a few more links to sites with information on leadership that I have found interesting:


Air Force Strategic Leadership Studies Competencies and Skills



Air Force Strategic Leadership Studies Humility as a Leadership Attribute (PDF)



Educational Materials from NDSU Agriculture and University Extension Business, Community, Leadership



Book and Videos on Leadership



Coast Guard Leadership Competencies



National Clearinghouse for Leadership Programs

Serving Student Leadership Educators


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