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People Who Are WB Trained Dont Put It To Use

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You are correct OGE. Like I said, I took the old course when it was for Boy Scouts only.


Bob's post & my last one crossed. His was not there when I posted.


I tend to agree with Kudu. It seems the BSA has taken a great advanced training course for Boy Scouts & dumbed it down to cover Cubs & Venturing along with Boy Scouts. But not Sea Scouts? Sea Scouts have their own course? So why can't Cubs & Venturing? Sometimes trying to have an all-inclusive training course accomplishes much less. I took the old course (NE-V-120). Loved it! It was the best BSA training course I ever took. Why? It was specific to what I was doing in Scouting. And I learned tons, took tons back & met tons of great people!


And the name is Ed not "A poster".


Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

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Kudu, That's an inspired post. But no, wait, tell us how you really feel about it :-)


Joni, we don't have any WB leaders active in our troop right now. We've had a couple in troop history, and they were good solid leaders with nothing like the problems you describe. I do see some people that are something like that at the Roundtables - it seems like after some people have been in the program long enough, they do start to clump together in an old boys' club. I do give them the benefit of the doubt, though, and assume that they do want the best for everyone. It's just that their perspective may have changed somewhat over the years.

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Wood Badge is Advanced Leadership Training for ALL adults in ALL scouting positions including Sea Scouts. Seabadge is NOT the same course nor is it intended to be.


For those who have not attended Wood Badge for the 21st Century it would be impossible for them to compare it agains previous versions of Wood Badge that they have experienced. They simply have no knowledge base to uuse for such a comaprison. If their Wood Badge experience was a good on and has helped them develop in leadership then they should be satisfied in that. They have no need and serve to benefit to guess at what they think are problems with a course they have never taken.



The probelm is not that all leaders do not use the information taught at Wood Badge. As you have seen in other threads, many leaders do not use information taught in other courses either. The fault is not in the information or the course, but in the choice of the indiviuals to learn an d use the ckills or not, and in the choice of some trainers to train effectively or not.


People make mistakes in both the teaching and the learning, that is to a large degree based on how we select those who teach and those who lead.


I cannot help to think however that your specific situation is far more personal than that, and that perhaps stess and anger from your relationship to the scoutmaster taints your perspective and reaction to the situation.




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Long ago, one's commitment to scouting had to be firmly established BEFORE one could be "considered" for the Wood Badge course. One had to have been a SM or ASM for a considerable length of time usually to show that commitment was beyond one's own son's years as a scout. And you had to be voted in attend a WB course by current WBer's much like the OA still is.


Not a perfect system, but I personally prefer it to the nearly open admission process that my council uses.





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So, what we are back to is to have Wood Badge be an expert level Boy Scout adult training course and call it Wood Badge and then have either separate Expert Level Courses for Cubs, and Venturing, and Sea Scouts, and call it something else. Then, since we now have program specific advanced training courses we need multiple training teams. How many feel that the council they serve could put on a good advanced session separately in Cubs, Boy Scouts, Venturing, and Sea Scouts?


I guess I could go along with Wood Badge being specific to Boy Scouts and then have a "Management Class" open to all aspects of the Program. It may lower Kudu's blood pressure. So to be fully trained in Boy Scouts I need to be a Wood Badger and a Management Course graduate, just the path an organization should take that currently has 30% of its adults trained at the entry level

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I think most of the larger councils would be able to pull this off OGE. I am pretty sure mine could. The smaller councils might have to buddy up with another council, though.


I also feel this would better serve each individual program than trying to have a one-size-fits-all course.


Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

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Now I have got over the "Pink" thing!!


The question asked does seem to place a lot of expectations from people who have taken Wood Badge Training.

In some ways to my mind it's a little like asking, "Why don't members of a certain religion behave better?"


I have attended a lot of Training sessions -Some were really great, some were down right bad.

I have seen all sorts of people attend training's.

Some attend because they think that they will get something out of the training which will help them better serve the youth in whatever role they are tasked with.

Some just tag along because they have a pal who is going.

Some feel that they are under pressure of some kind to attend.

Some are "Training Junkies" who attend anything and everything.

Having at one time or another presented most of the BSA Training's I felt my main concern was to present a quality training.

My job was never to judge why anyone was taking the training.

Do some people get more or take home more than others from a training?

You bet they do.

Trying to group everyone who has ever taken Wood Badge together as one big group is just a little daffy. No change that it's more than a little daffy it's big time daffy.

If a fool attends Wood Badge at the end of the course he or she isn't any less of a fool, hey are just a fool with training.


As with most things in life I sometimes know what I should be doing or not doing and there are times even with this knowledge that I choose not to follow the right path or right way.

I have been a Scout for a very long time and my working on my living the Scout Oath and Law is still very much a work in progress.

I have been a Roman Catholic since I was baptized as a baby. Still I'm practicing.

I wish I could put my hand on my heart and say that I always do the right thing and I always do things as they should be done, but I can't.

We do have people in Scouting that might be serving in the wrong position?

We have people who do think that they know everything and don't need or want any of the "Stuff" that seems to keep on coming from where ever this "Stuff" comes from.

Some people new to Scouting seem to want to get rid of the old and move ahead with the new, while some want to have nothing to do with the new and keep things just as they were in whatever time they deem to be the best time.

Most times I try to look at them all as being a clock that has stopped. If nothing else they are right twice a day.

A lot of it for me comes down to respect. I might very well be in disagreement with people who don't agree with me and most times I tend to think that they are wrong and I'm in the right, but that's life!!


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I guess I have no choice but to bite the cheese and answer the trick question because for those that asked, their probably hanging on whether I am fully "trained" or not. And down will come the handle on the mousetrap. Whatever will be will be...


No, I have not taken Wood Badge training.


Why should I? For one I have not been in a financial position to afford it and two, I am not a direct contact leader; I have always functioned on the committee. I took Scoutmaster training 4 years ago just so I could understand better, what the SM's function in a Troop was supposed to be, so that I could serve my unit better by supporting them.


And three, my husband was WB trained in the early 1990's and has given me his course material and explained/taught me as best he can, what the gist of the experience was for him. I accepted this teaching, but WB has apparently changed A LOT since he went through it. He feels it has been extremely dumbed down to suit the masses and that it's no longer the second in line to elite training (Philmont being first, where he took Strictly for Scoutmasters) an adult Boy Scout Leader can take. And from what my dear husband has told me - he feels the leaders that are serving the particular unit our son is in and are WB beaders, took nothing from the experience except how to BE a Scout, and not how to better guide the Scouts so that the SCOUTS can lead the unit effectively.


In other words, the unit I serve has 3 WB beaders but basically they poo-poo the patrol method and make excuses about WHY our Troop can't use it - everything from "we only have 18 boys and that's not enough" (which is hogwash), to the more recent excuse I just got last week, which was the SM didn't think using the Patrol method, at least on the campouts (operating with an ADULT PATROL where the ADULTS lead by EXAMPLE), was feasible - because he didn't think the boys would be able to have a nutritious meal in a decent amount of time if left on their own to handle it. (YIKES)


Regardless, this post wasn't about who's better to talk about the WB experience or the usefulness of the course, it's more about my being baffled that our unit can have so many WB beaders and then come up with dumb excuses about why our Troop shouldn't have to actually BEHAVE like a Troop and how we are exempt from every ideal of Scouting and all its methods simply because it's adult direct contact leaders won't get their heads out of their rears and effectively help our boys to LEARN to be boy-led, boy-run. Essentially what the SM and other direct contact leaders seem to prefer our Troop be managed like is a huge "Family Camping Program" which personally disgusts me in a manner that is beyond my abilities to express.


Because of this, I have to believe they took NOTHING, if even a little, from their Wood Badge experience or apprently their SM training!! And I don't understand how folks like that can live with their performance as adult leaders in a Troop! I didn't expect those that are guilty of this were going to step up here on this message forum and defend their positions. I realize those of us who are here are not generally leaders of this variety.


This message board just usually seems to be a safe place for me to vent and get advice on how to TOLERATE this kind of crap, and how to hopefully try and change it. My husband gets pretty tired of listening to it. (As all men tire of listening to their wives complain) :) LOL

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Yeah, I hate when I see a Troop that isn't boy led or boy run. We are suppose to be training these youth to be adult leaders, not to do the work for them.


I am involved in two different troops and I am an associate adviser for a Crew. One Troop is totally boy run with the Scout Master keeping an eye on things, stepping in when the SPL asks him too, and giving him "guiding" advise. The other troop, the SM is in control. Period. He speaks for the boys, he makes the decisions for the boys. This SM came into the Crew meeting the other week with the SPL to discuss some cross training, to my dismay, the SPL didn't say a word. I had to ask him if the boy with him was the SPL for the troop, I then directed him to our Crew President.


Yep, one SM was WB trained and a former staffer, the other was a new SM with no WB experience. I got a chance to talk to the new SM a little bit about WB training and I am hoping that he gets a chance to attend.


You probably guessed it but I am WB trained and currently on staff. I believe that WB for the 21st Century has a lot to offer ALL leaders: BS, CS, VC, DE's. Yes, we are modeled after a troop, yes people are put into patrols and people learn if they choose to learn - or not if they can't get passed their closed minds.


Saying that the course has been "dumbed down" is an ignorant statement, plain and simple. Ignorant, intolerant, and bad spirit. Yes, it's different from "old wood badge" but you know what, things change. Life Happens.


Joni - I am sorry that you are not seeing the results from your WB Leaders that they should be giving to their Unit. I think that is unfortunate. I guess I am fortunate enough to be in a council where I have seen LOTS of good come from WB training on all unit levels.


Try not to be discouraged. A lot of us are here doing what we do because we believe we are ultimately helping out the Youth.



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Greetings all


First, let me say that I mean no offence about what Im about to ask. Im a new leader and hoping to take Wood Badge in the fall. Im a cub leader now and plan to stay in cubs for my younger son (Tiger) but my older son is just about to Cross Over and I hope to have some involvement with the Troop. I have pieced together some notion about what Wood Badge is all about, what I can expect, and what it might do for me going forward. I was curious about RememberSchiffs comment:


Long ago, one's commitment to scouting had to be firmly established BEFORE one could be "considered" for the Wood Badge course. One had to have been a SM or ASM for a considerable length of time usually to show that commitment was beyond one's own son's years as a scout. And you had to be voted in attend a WB course by current WBer's much like the OA still is.


It seems to me that, back at that time, at the point one would take Wood Badge ones scouting career would be just about over. What then was the point of Wood Badge back at that time? Were you expected to mentor up and coming scoutmasters and assistant scoutmasters? Was it purely a personal thing, the culmination of a successful scouting career and just done for personal satisfaction and/or prestige? Am I overestimating what a considerable length of time was?


Again, Im just trying to get an understanding.





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Hi Mike,


I think thats where the "new" (Wood badge for the 21st Century) Wood badge departs from the "Old" Wood badge. I would really recommend that anyone planning on sticking around in a leadership position in scouting take this course sooner then later!


IMHO the training is invaluable not only for scouting but for everyday life. Yes, there are some people that think WB is more of a leadership course then a scout skills course. Well, honestly it is! You will be using your scout skills during the course but you will also learn new skills on how to work with and lead your unit. The best thing is when you get back to your unit, you will be modeling what you have learned. Isn't that a lot of what we do as leaders? The youth watch what we do, how we handle situations, and learn from us?


The other great thing that I took away from Wood badge is the people that I have met and connected with. There is something to be said about bonding with a group of people that all have the same goal in mind. Its a new network to pull resources from too.


Anyway, I hope this helps you out a little bit in deciding if you are going to attend Wood Badge or not!


Venturing On...



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The time Schiff is referring to was a long, long, long, time ago. Ignore it. This is not about serving a select few. Wood Badge is about serving more of scouting and the community by giving people as many useful leadership tools as we can as soon as they are ready.


Go and enjoy.





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I was referring to the Old Wood Badge. Most WBer's were "lifers" in the scouting program. And that was the point, this acknowledged this group of knowledgeable, experienced Scoutmasters who made a long commitment to working with scouts as the best of the best. So yes prestige, sort of Eagle Scout for Scoutmasters, very different from the Wood Badge today, which I think should use a different name to prevent confusion.


Anyway, more was expected from WBers but they were already known for giving beyond those expectations both at the troop and district levels and that was the original concern expressed in this thread - a lack of commitment.


But you had to be voted in to be considered and some (my scoutmaster included) complained that perpetuated a "Good Ole Boys" Club". Probably true, but those selected certainly were committed to helping scouts.


My scoutmaster served for over twenty years and was never voted in. Maybe because he was too good at poker at Camporee Crackerbarrels or because he did not take the troop to summer camp...He was very disappointed, but admitted not everyone makes Eagle.


So from your perspective, you think 10 years is a "considerable length of time"? Hah, for a Scouter no, now if we were talking about water heaters.


Anyway a little bit of scout history.


Thanks for your service to scouting but remember your family comes first, meaning preserve and cherish your separate family life. At your stage, I fell into the trap of only seeing and working with my sons at a scout activity where I was already busy with other scouts. Learn from my mistake. An Old WBer told me that and I didn't learn.



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I'll echo this sentiment, WISE words from RememberSchiff:


"Thanks for your service to scouting but remember your family comes first, meaning preserve and cherish your separate family life. At your stage, I fell into the trap of only seeing and working with my sons at a scout activity where I was already busy with other scouts. Learn from my mistake. An Old WBer told me that and I didn't learn. "

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Thanks everyone for the comments, history and advice.


RememberSchiff, I was thinking more like 20 years for the considerable length of time. As for hot water heaters, we had one that did the job for well over 30 years. It came with the house when we bought it and I did my best to keep it functional, replacing the heating elements on several occasions. Finally it rotted out at the bottom and we had to say good-bye.


Thanks again!





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